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S4 Captain Choices

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On 12/15/2018 at 9:22 PM, GeroJr said:

She's got a 5/8 move. ;) But yeah, she can cover crazy distances and if you can bonus time her shot on goal it will always be a 4 die shot (2 dies+rerolls).

Yeah, good point. She's still one of the fastest models on the team, though

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On 12/14/2018 at 4:56 PM, Rammer said:

When playing Order, do you prefer Shark or Corsair as captain?

With Brisket as their only captain, they will always be a goal threat first. Even with Benediction and Fangtooth, they are still primarily set up for goal scoring, and so are the Fish.
You have to choose if you want to try to control the pitch with pushes and drags, or if you want to try to match their scoring. If you choose Shark, you have to make sure you get that first goal. If setup properly, it becomes a new goal every time a ball is thrown back in, which means you need to be up one as soon as possible.

I'm taking Corsair more often against the Order, mostly because I've managed to make my Order rival reluctant to engage certain models, including Corsair, Jac, and Kraken, because of their ability to push. It's almost more psychological than strategic. As well, there are several Order players that are fairly easy to take down if you can corner them. Having a lot of 2" melee helps.

I'm still more comfortable taking Shark against most other teams, though.

9 hours ago, ningu said:

Yeah, good point. She's still one of the fastest models on the team, though

Yeah. I'm really looking forward to getting the Navigators box set. 
She will add a lot of flexibility, but unfortunately seals Angel's fate as a cheerleader.

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9 hours ago, mbdeyes said:

Yeah. I'm really looking forward to getting the Navigators box set. 

She will add a lot of flexibility, but unfortunately seals Angel's fate as a cheerleader.

I'm not so sure that's the case. I'm definitely going to give angel a shot with Shark when Fathom drops. 

The basic hypothesis here is going to be, 1) find a first turn goal, 2) Shark w/6 inf activation gets the next on eon the second turn, 3) You have an 8inf activation left to get the ball and put the game away, 

I have no interest in using linked to score 8 points. It's a cool style move but it's very unlikely. What I am interested in is seeing if full stacking Fathom/Angel is pretty much going to get 1 goal all the time. 

Angel is also a solid model to score turn one when you receive. You can pretty reasonably keep everyone safe and spread out, build some mp on passes, score with Angel on your last activation, and end up in cover with 6+ def.  Unless your opponent has 2" melee with an early KD for their last activation, you shouldn't give up much mp and make the fight for initiative turn 2 still possible. 

Anyway, all of this is just some scattered ideas I've been putting together. But I think Angel definitely gets one more look before she's benched indefinitely. 

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4 hours ago, Frankanelli said:

Anyway, all of this is just some scattered ideas I've been putting together. But I think Angel definitely gets one more look before she's benched indefinitely. 

She has had no impactful change since season 3 and nothing in the general mechanics of the game has changed around her to make her same old limitations go away.

If you were benching her all of season 3 you'll continue to do so and for the few people that did not Fathom is now around to make them strongly consider it.

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She had 3 impactfull change. dodge mom on first column mean she can farm momentum. Comeover here mean she make Salt our best ball retriever. Linked mean 3 model can move during the same activation.

I'm still thinking about her as a cheerleader. But she is far far better now. Worth a try on the occasion, I think.

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1 hour ago, Thyamath said:

She had 3 impactfull change. dodge mom on first column mean she can farm momentum. Comeover here mean she make Salt our best ball retriever. Linked mean 3 model can move during the same activation.

I'm still thinking about her as a cheerleader. But she is far far better now. Worth a try on the occasion, I think.

She is Tac 4 with a 1" melee, she is never going to be a reliable momentum farmer, all the T< enables is better ball recovery from 1" melee models which is not something the team struggled with at all

Salt is still corner case mascot pick for the team and when the stars align and someone does pick her she does not need Get Over Here to cover ground.

And whilst linked is powerful it sadly requires you to take two squishy strikers which neither captain particularly favours doing because Corsair often needs more tech options rather than multiple dedicated goal scoring and Shark is already a dedicated goal scoring piece and so only really needs one good striker to support him. Linked [Angel] is much better for Navigators because they can really use the 2nd striker in general.

Angel's problem however is not that she is weak per se, it's just that she always and will always have to compete for a place on the team against all the other Fish models.

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I feel like you're perfectly right. But.

She's not a good momentum farmer, but in S3 she could absolutely not farm momentum cause she had no result (yeah ... in fish 1 damage is not a result... at least with shark) in column 1. Now she can. This is a really big improvement. Mean when you don't have the ball and had some influence on her, you can still do something, and this is not a net loss.

As a Jac player, I really feel the loss of Come over here, for Jac as much as for Salt. on Angel it is really less good, but it is still a great way to make that mascot (wich I personnaly prefer with Shark, tentacle being or slow or needing to be close to someone, which shark don't like) faster, one of the fastest player.

Shark is usually ok to score by himself. But sometimes the third goal is hard to score. Having Fathom to get the ball and Angel to score in the same activation, could help with that.

 

Still Angel is one of our badder striker, being the slowest one. She is bad at getting the ball, being too slow for that (and no mz2). She is probably quite tough, but too influence hungry. And no mz2 ...

 

She may be better in Navigator, but I don't see who you take out of your team. The only one which can get out, most of the time, and with lot of regret, is Horizon, and it is only to take Siren in. When do you take Angel instead of Siren ? Navigators rarely have the momentum to take a snapshot. I guess you could lose ebb (argh) or Azimuth (ergh) if you decide to lose (mainly ...) any idea about damage and control. You could take Fathom out, but why would you take Angel when you can have Fathom ?

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17 hours ago, mbdeyes said:

I'm taking Corsair more often against the Order, mostly because I've managed to make my Order rival reluctant to engage certain models, including Corsair, Jac, and Kraken, because of their ability to push. It's almost more psychological than strategic. As well, there are several Order players that are fairly easy to take down if you can corner them. Having a lot of 2" melee helps.

I'm still more comfortable taking Shark against most other teams, though.

Yeah. I'm really looking forward to getting the Navigators box set. 
She will add a lot of flexibility, but unfortunately seals Angel's fate as a cheerleader.

Over the past week, I was able to a few games in against Order. I have been forcing myself to use Corsair instead of Shark for the time being in order to understand how he works a bit better especially in the different match ups I may come across. Most recently, I have actually found Corsair, Salt, Kraken, oSiren, Greyscales, and one of the Sakanas to be a great lineup versus Order. 

Corsair and Kraken can hold up the middle of the field versus vFangtooth, using Drag to pull models in and deal the needed bits of damage to the squishier models. They also cause knockdowns which can hamper many of the out of activation tricks Order can pull. 

Either Sakana proves to be an extremely adaptable model as well, either chipping in a bit more damage or getting the shots in.

Greyscales can be used to chase the ball and his dodge has been wonderful versus Pride. I typically play him deep in the opposing half of the field to chase the ball down from behind and then get a cheeky shot in.

oSiren can pull off her own set of tricks to combat the Order's tricks. She has really been wonderful to mess up some of their goal runs and is decently resilient versus the team, typically being Def 5 and 1 Arm from Kraken. I keep her close to the scrum in the middle to poke out when needed. She is definitely fast enough to do that.  

I have been trying Salt is for the bit of extra movement to catch up to the ball and run it away from them. In addition, his dodges have been wonderful versus Pride sitting in the back. I can say if Salt is worth it over Tentacles yet for the match up, but have found his uses for sure. 

1 hour ago, Banjulhu said:

Angel's problem however is not that she is weak per se, it's just that she always and will always have to compete for a place on the team against all the other Fish models.

I definitely agree with this. It's tough because I really want to like Angel and even though she typically scores a goal in the games I have played with her, she is not as adaptable of a model as others and the 1" melee really limits her potential. If she was 2" range, I could see her making more of an impact. Even though she would not be as versatile as many of the other models, at least she would be able to match the range of almost every other Fish player and I would not face the circumstance of myself regretting not having another 2" model during a game. 

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Yes... it's not that Angel is a bad model or a bad striker. She is actually one of my very favorite players, yet I find I always have a better option. That is even more the case now that Fathom joins us. 

As far as having a back up striker, if you have Fathom, Greyscales, and either of the Sakana's on Shark's team, you already have a team of strikers. I don't see what Angel adds. Linked is interesting, but in most cases I'd rather just run Fathom up for the goal than try to get the pass to Angel and lose the ability to react to the opposing team's later activations. Remember, you may get a two for one now, but you're giving that same two for one to the other team at the end of the turn, which can be tactically significant in some situations. 

Linked might even be more useful if Angel had it rather than it only being on Fathom. Then you could change the activation order when necessary.

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My main issue with Angel is that vSiren has a similar threat range (18" -> 17"), but she can do so much more. The combination of Dread Gaze and Fair Wind means that with 2 INF vSiren can either knock somebody over, or recover a free ball without much trouble.

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2 minutes ago, ningu said:

My main issue with Angel is that vSiren has a similar threat range (18" -> 17"), but she can do so much more. The combination of Dread Gaze and Fair Wind means that with 2 INF vSiren can either knock somebody over, or recover a free ball without much trouble.

Or with 3 inf, can move the scattered ball after knocking someone down. :D

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Siren2 is awesome. But to score, she often miss one inf. I feel like linked could be usefull to score that third goal, in which  there is no tomorrow and no giving the opponent the last activations, and is usually the harder one to score (shark is usually ok to score the first two). But I don't know what to do with angel the remaining of the time, and Every game i used her (and Fathom), she was not necessary (or even desapointing). But I also feel like I lack some try and some some training with her.

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Greyscales, 9 games out of 10, ends up being my MVP. 
I've also done some interesting things with both oSiren and vSakana. 
Either way, like I said, there just seems to be more consistently useful players to choose.

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On 12/18/2018 at 5:20 AM, Banjulhu said:

She has had no impactful change since season 3 and nothing in the general mechanics of the game has changed around her to make her same old limitations go away.

If you were benching her all of season 3 you'll continue to do so and for the few people that did not Fathom is now around to make them strongly consider it.

Dude what? She has never been part of an 8 inf activation before.  I'm not saying she's for sure in now, but to say she's identical is just false. She definitely offers something new and I think there's a chance it's impactful. Have you tried her with Fathom yet as a tool to close out the game with linked? Cause I'd love to hear how that experiment went. 

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5 hours ago, Frankanelli said:

....Have you tried her with Fathom yet as a tool to close out the game with linked? Cause I'd love to hear how that experiment went. 

I'd rather have something that's consistently useful for the whole game, but I will likely try this at some point, if my box of Navigators ever comes in.

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17 hours ago, Frankanelli said:

Dude what? She has never been part of an 8 inf activation before.  I'm not saying she's for sure in now, but to say she's identical is just false. She definitely offers something new and I think there's a chance it's impactful. Have you tried her with Fathom yet as a tool to close out the game with linked? Cause I'd love to hear how that experiment went. 

I in no way said she was identical. Just that her changes are not big enough nor in the right places to matter

And as said just above you need something that is useful for the whole game not just the end game because you won't get to the end game without solid pieces in place.

I would also like to air the simple belief that model being a good choice for a team should not be based on the presence of another non-captain model.

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On 12/17/2018 at 8:17 PM, mbdeyes said:

With Brisket as their only captain, they will always be a goal threat first. Even with Benediction and Fangtooth, they are still primarily set up for goal scoring, and so are the Fish.
You have to choose if you want to try to control the pitch with pushes and drags, or if you want to try to match their scoring. If you choose Shark, you have to make sure you get that first goal. If setup properly, it becomes a new goal every time a ball is thrown back in, which means you need to be up one as soon as possible.

I'm taking Corsair more often against the Order, mostly because I've managed to make my Order rival reluctant to engage certain models, including Corsair, Jac, and Kraken, because of their ability to push. It's almost more psychological than strategic. As well, there are several Order players that are fairly easy to take down if you can corner them. Having a lot of 2" melee helps.

I'm still more comfortable taking Shark against most other teams, though.

Yeah. I'm really looking forward to getting the Navigators box set. 
She will add a lot of flexibility, but unfortunately seals Angel's fate as a cheerleader.

+1 on the bit regarding 2" melee vs Order, I've been playing my regular opponent who's runs predominantly Order at the moment he usually runs sBrisket, Pride, vFangtooth, sSpigot, vHarry and Mist. 

Brisket and Pride are both 1"MZ being able to keep them tied is good, though try to dodge into Pride to shut down his counter attack (works on advances but not dodges) Mist has 2" MZ and a 2" for 1 inf, so she's a little trickier to lock down.

As for captain choices, my opponent really hated Shark due to the legendary, but I found the game went better using Corsair, partly as it makes it much harder for them to work their synergies (Fangtooth's free pass, Brisket's 'I'm open play with or without her legendary)

Personally I'd say Corsair is a better match up but if you want a fun game play Shark and take Fathom with vSakana, Bag of Coffers + Raise the Black Flag on Fathom makes for an even stronger goal threat than she already is.

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