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Rammer

S4 Captain Choices

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Hello everyone, 

Brand new player here! I just started playing Guild Ball about a month ago and have been having a blast playing the Fish! I went to my first tournament on Saturday and went 2-1. As I was drafting in the tournament though, I was curious on if I was playing the correct matchups versus each of the guilds. Keeping that in mind, with Season 4 being new, it is hard to see which information online is still accurate after the changes. Given this, would you guys be able to give me any clues on the matchups against any of the other guilds? Some of this may come down to style, but I would like to know a bit more of everyone's opinion and experiences so far. Is there any guilds that you refuse to play either Shark or Corsair into because of the difficulty of a matchup that can happen?

Thanks for the help!

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Hey there! Always good to lure another player to the salty depths :D

I've played a decent amount of Fish in Season 4 and I can give you my opinions on match ups, but take them with a grain of...Salt I guess.

  • Alchs: Corsair
    • I haven't played this yet, but I've played Alchs a bit and it feels like the match up likely hasn't changed much. Alchs want to grind and keep their range, so you want the captain that can deny that. Now you're looking for more of a 2 goals, 2 take out approach, but the overall flow of the game should be pretty similar. I'd run
    • Line up: Corsair, Mascot (Salt if kicking, Tentacles if receiving if you fit them both into the 12), Kraken, Hag, Fathom, vSakana/Greyscales
  • Blacksmiths: Shark
    • I think either captain is fine here, but I prefer Shark since the Smiths threaten high end damage that can, to a degree, get around Tough Hide. Meanwhile, they aren't particularly good at killing the ball, opening the door to a 3 goal approach, though Shark can absolutely chew threw some of those squishy apprentices in the right situation.
    • Line up: Shark, Tentacles, Hag, Sakana, Greyscales, oSiren (still need to play around with vSiren some more), Fathom/Jac
  • Brewers: Corsair
    • Between Mash and Friday, the Brewers just have too much ball killing tech for Shark in my opinion. Meanwhile, Corsair can either drag a model out and grind it down or play a tricky 3 goal game with Rough Seas (you can even pop Resilience with Drag first to make this easier).
    • Line up: Corsair, Tentacles, Fathom, Hag, Jac, vSiren
  • Butchers: Corsair
    • This match up seems to have done a full 180 since last season. Shark is still viable, but his game is a lot riskier with Tenderiser so much better, especially if you have to kick. Ideally, you receive and play Corsair and Kraken, who then threaten the kick off model with a drag. The idea is you use Corsair to just deny Ox's board control by yanking models out of The Owner. And if Ox ever comes up far enough to project it onto Corsair, you just suck him in instead and that's a dead Ox
    • Line up: Corsair, Salt, Kraken, Hag, vSakana, Greyscales
  • Engineers: Both
    • This one can go either way. I've run Corsair and grinded out the take out game while denying the ball as long as possible against Pin Vice and that felt very strong. But if you can, I'd kick with Shark since he out-threats their goal scorers and with reach and a pretty reliable tackle, he can get through Close Control. But Corsair has a very good game into Pin Vice if you're not comfortable receiving with Shark
    • Line up: Shark/Corsair, Tentacles, Kraken, Hag, vSakana, Siren/Fathom
  • Falconers: Shark
    • Corsair is too slow and vulnerable to Harriers. Stay fast, threaten the ball (this team doesn't really hold it very well), and look for a cheeky take out if it's presented. Mataagi might have 5+ defense but with only 10 health, Shark can pretty viably take him out if he's in the right position
    • Line up: Shark, Salt, Fathom, Hag, Kraken, Sakana
  • Farmers: Corsair
    • Haven't played this one yet, but Tough Hide seems like a challenge for Farmers right now. I'd just suck people out of the control bubble and grind them down while threatening the ball with a couple of fast strikers
    • Line up: Corsair, Salt, Fathom, Sakana/Greyscales, Kraken, Jac
  • Fishermen: Shark
    • I've played both sides of this and it's a pretty fun match up to be honest. I personally think this will ultimately be Shark favored since it's harder for Corsair to protect the ball now, but Corsair absolutely has game here. Seems like if Shark gets to kick and plays well, he'll generally win
    • Line up: Shark, Tentacles, Hag, Fathom, Siren, Sakana
  • Hunters: Shark
    • Also haven't played this one, but it seems pretty tough. But Harrier markers seem like they make life hard for Corsair and I think he struggles to keep pace with Skatha or to match Theron for damage. Shark doesn't feel a lot better, but I think he can out-goal Skatha if he kicks and at least adds some variance to the game that might give you an opening
    • Line up: Shark, Salt, Hag, Fathom, Greyscales, Sakana/vSakana
  • Masons: Shark
    • I could be wrong, but I don't think Corsair can deal with Mallet. That asshole ignores Drag and has both tough hide and access to a +2 damage buff. Honour might be better overall, but I wouldn't risk the other player dropping Hammer. Shark has pretty good mechanics for bunker busting, so I'd go all out on goal scoring here
    • Line up: Shark, Tentacles, Hag, Sakana, Siren/vSiren, Greyscales
  • Morticians: Shark
    • I've played Corsair into Scalpel a couple of times and it didn't feel so bad, but it's really tough. A few bad rolls can snowball the game away from you and she's just so damn tough to pin down. I have concerns about Shark against Scalpel since she'll have plenty of ways to get around his counter attack, but he can threaten goals and make her be a bit less resource efficient. I also think Shark into Obulus is pretty Shark favored, so you don't really need to worry about an unexpected pick
    • Line up: Shark, Salt, Hag, Kraken, Sakana, Siren
  • Navigators: Corsair
    • I've only played Shark into this, but it was pretty rough. Yes, he can threaten the ball, but the combination of Windfinder, Azimuth, and rerolls makes Shark a sad boy. Corsair will be pretty tough for the Navs to chew threw and can still threaten the ball
    • Line up: Corsair, Tentacles, Kraken, Hag, Fathom, Greyscales
  • Ratcatchers: Corsair
    • Piper makes this a nightmare for Shark. He has so many ways around Shark's slipperiness and can set up him up to get taken out pretty handily. Plus, Corsair invalidates a lot of the control that Skulk brings. Just need to watch out for Pelage, since she can screw Corsair up pretty badly. Look for 2 goals and two take outs
    • Line up: Corsair, Tentacles, Jac, Kraken, Fathom, vSakana/vSiren
  • Union: Corsair
    • I think Corsair is just flexibile enough to respond to whatever the Union wants to go with in this match up. He can grind out the fights, play the ball, just a bit of everything to respond to such a flexible opponent
    • Line up: Corsair, Salt, Hag, Kraken, Sakana/vSakana, Greyscales

Sorry about the long post. I figured I'd get my thoughts out in some detail. A major caveat is that I haven't messed around much with Fathom and haven't tried Horizon at all yet, but I think they should show up way more than I've listed here.

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This is exactly the type of description I was looking for! Thank you for taking the time to write it all up. As a new player, your descriptions make sense and I can see why you pick each captain. I haven't played too much with Corsair yet, but want to get some more practice with him. 

 

Let me ask you about the Hunter's matchup though, because that has been one of the toughest matchups for me personally. With Shark vs Theron, Theron in particular was quite good at shutting down the strikers with his Pinned character play. It really seemed to hamper and shuts down a lot of Shark's mobility around the field. I haven't played Skatha vs Shark yet, but I was actually leaning towards Corsair being a solid pick against the Hunters as well. Being able to drag them in and off them once engaged, as well as resisting much of the damage from the ranged plays seems pretty good.  

 

Anyone else have more experience with this matchup in S4?

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16 hours ago, Penguin Warrior said:
  • Morticians: Shark
    • I've played Corsair into Scalpel a couple of times and it didn't feel so bad, but it's really tough. A few bad rolls can snowball the game away from you and she's just so damn tough to pin down. I have concerns about Shark against Scalpel since she'll have plenty of ways to get around his counter attack, but he can threaten goals and make her be a bit less resource efficient. I also think Shark into Obulus is pretty Shark favored, so you don't really need to worry about an unexpected pick
    • Line up: Shark, Salt, Hag, Kraken, Sakana, Siren

I'm pretty surpised here. I felt having a better match with Corsair against Scalpel (because she excel at killing star player, and Corsair can do a good Job without being one, spreading influence), but Shark could be a good pick. I'm just so surprised you chose not to take Jac, which seems a very good pick against scalpel, avoiding her to kill someone which didn't played yet. I fill like Jac is a so good pick against every team relying heavily on one model, especially when that model is a captain. And I think it, kinda, counter hemlock too. With Shark I would Fathom in order to have a second real scorer in case of Shark dying early, or, may gods preserve us, a Casket Time on Shark.

 

I played a little against S4 Hunter. My deduction is that if they pick teddybear, you're in a good day. Theron is manageable cause you have access to so much dodge with shark, and a lot of reposition to with Corsair. I think Shark is clearly simpler here. Against Skatha You should be ok receiving or kicking , since shark can do all the work by himself after she scored a goal, thenput another one beginning the next turn. Receiving is easier so, since you're pretty much sure to get the first goal, except if she comme in firsts activations. Then just farm momentum on her go for 2 goal. I would advice to have some range extender (Jac/Hag) to go more easily forward if you have to receive the ball but failed to retrieve it and skatha score last activation (hten Shark activate take the ball farm momentum and score. But if he have to pay for tidal surge, that's a lot less momentum). Receiving I'll mostly advice to mesure Skatha threat, and if she kick herself, try to control her as you can. Kraken could be a good guy, since she can't easily go out of his melee while tackling (feating is not easy ...) and if she come and success to score he can make her useless for the beginning of the next turn, avoiding she mark just after Shark did. And we also all know that noone like being KD just after tackling the ball ...

 

 

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I must play the fish differently.
I expect everyone to pile on to Shark, either literally or with conditions, so I depend on my other players. Greyscales has been one of my main scorers and Sakana (either version) has been my backup. It sounds like that's not the case for you guys if you need Fathom as a second to Shark. 

Don't get me wrong, I'll be adding her to the team for multiple reasons, including her ability to clear conditions and to score, but I haven't gotten my hands on her yet.

Also, I clearly need to practice more with Corsair. I would feel more comfortable with Shark in most of those matchups now that we can't generate any momentum from damage.

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9 hours ago, Rammer said:

This is exactly the type of description I was looking for! Thank you for taking the time to write it all up. As a new player, your descriptions make sense and I can see why you pick each captain. I haven't played too much with Corsair yet, but want to get some more practice with him. 

 

Let me ask you about the Hunter's matchup though, because that has been one of the toughest matchups for me personally. With Shark vs Theron, Theron in particular was quite good at shutting down the strikers with his Pinned character play. It really seemed to hamper and shuts down a lot of Shark's mobility around the field. I haven't played Skatha vs Shark yet, but I was actually leaning towards Corsair being a solid pick against the Hunters as well. Being able to drag them in and off them once engaged, as well as resisting much of the damage from the ranged plays seems pretty good.  

 

Anyone else have more experience with this matchup in S4?

Skatha is just too fast for Corsair in my opinion, especially now that she can reliably get a triple dodge and has a tackle on one while Corsair has lost Close Control and momentous damage. I think you want Corsair vs Theron and Shark vs Skatha and since I think the normal pick into Fish will be Skatha, I'd prefer to drop Shark. Plus, Theron has plenty of ways of controlling Shark, but if he focuses there, you can use your other football players to get around that control. But no doubt, this is a tricky match up as Hunters are probably the top team in the game right now.

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You can just put the ball  on the ground or on Tentacle behind every one,  and suddently skatha don't have a so good time against Corsair, I think.

 

Don't get me wront. I have scored plenty of goal with Greyscale (especially since vSiren is a so good ball getter ...😍) since he is probably our best ball keeper, and you put goal quite easily with both Siren, Sakana or Salt, and even Hag isn't that bad at it if you need it (and put some influence on her ... ). Let's not talk about Angel. But greyscale, and most of the others (salt could ...), have trouble shooting from the line of deployment, where fathom can do that pretty easily. There is plenty of other reason to want her (ball on the ground, smelling salt, good reliability on high def ...), but in this match up, she would come especially with that idea in mind.

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If you're willing to Tidal Surge Greyscales (for instance, if someone loads Shark up with conditions that hinder his movement, etc.), you manage to pass the ball to him, and he uses 'where'd they go', you're giving him 12" of dodge before he even starts his advance. He has a 7" sprint with a 6" kick.  That's a 25" threat without taking into account his unpredictable movement and double dodge on his second playbook result.   I've had some success with him.

I've also managed use Greyscale's 'Balls Gone', and bounced a shot off of Sakana or Shark, who extend his range by another 8" if you have the momentum.

That being said, Fathom, of course, can do the same but doesn't have the advantage of Unpredictable movement. Her dodge is also only 2 inches instead of 4, and her playbook dodges are harder to get to. She does get an extra 4 " if you have the momentum and positioning to use her heroic. She doesn't threaten models with close control, etc., like Greyscales or vSakana, though.

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Yes... I'm talking about someone able to score alone. Somethin like, shark is not able to score anymore and you just concede a goal. You need to get the ball and go scoring without needing to pass n move. Fathom can. I think she is the only squaddy in the Guild. Understand me. I love greyscale, and he more than once scored the third goal. Mortician and hunter having more high def than arm, I think, precise calculation is quite good too, even if Greyscale have clearly a better playbook (for his momentum, at least). :momT::momDD: is quite something too. I'm not arguing about efficiency about one or another in general. Just for scoring first turn without needing help, she's  the one and only option. playing shark you d'on' need those two first goal. But it really help. Sometimes you know there is quite a chance for your opponent to score before  you or just right after you had to go not last activation with shark. just by having her, the opponent can't just scor because you score again, keeping the gap. So for him to score would give you the victory if he don't kill shark at the beginning of the second turn. And Scoring usually ask for momentum and lot of ressources (turn1) so he might not be able to do the two. If he don't go for the ball after the goal kick you have very good chance to get it with Fathom or Siren2 if she is there. If he want to keep the ball moving, he probably need to use ressources. That's not what she does which matter, it is what she can do if the opponent don't come for her.

 

Also, among avantages, def 5 against 2 of the heaviest character play team can be a good Idea, I guess. I think I will have both Greyscale and Fathom, most of the time. Maybe not every matchup (i doubt she would be of great use against blacksmith, except maybe a very heavy scoring BS team).

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Gotcha... 
Without help and without being the kicker, Fathom has a 18" goal threat range, plus any dodges from her play book, and possibly the 4" from Heroic if terrain is a factor. That's easily a 22" to 24" goal threat range by herself. 

As for getting her the ball after the opponent has scored, this I've done already with Greyscales, and could also do so with Sakana, as by then most of the squaddies have moved up the field a bit. 

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True starting with the second turn. If the opponent come and score first turn, you can't with greyscale. Obviously when your players have already moved up the pitch, just throwing the ball in most of them can get it and score easily, if you have momentum. So if the opponent comme to score as a last activation, you can score in first activation next turn. If he come in the forlast, that can be a problem. To me at least. ^^ especially if he kill Shark in the process (because I messed something up ...).

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I usually count on Shark being dead after first turn or in the first couple of actions of second turn, one way or another. It doesn't always happen but Shark is such a tempting target, depending on who the opponent is fielding. It pays to set up your other team members in such a way as to still be competitive without him second turn.

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Yes. I'm talking about the first turn. I hope to use him first activation 2nd turn. I plan for him to be dead by that time. But Sometimes something avoid him to be usable during the first turn, and this is not usual. If you want to farm momentum and go for the goal, you kinda need  to go for goal as last activation. But doing that you open yourself to ennemy killing or controlling it heavy enough. Mortician can do that, even if you have to prevent it, sometimes those ways fail. So you need a backup plan for, having farmed momentum to try to have first activation second turn (pop legendary and die), go for that goal first turn. Fathom can do that, could Shark not. Meaning you have options, not only for the second turn where any one can score if it can get the ball, but also for turn one. For the next turn you have someone fast nough to get the ball quite far from the goal post and still come back and score.

If you think you can be safe, you even can try to put 2 goal on the first turn (it usually fail, but the pressure after that try is usually very hard and Shark know precisely where to go, whithout any risk to be killed before his first activation).

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I played my first game with Corsair last week. It really surprised my opponent (I'm the only Fish player locally). The other players are used to me going for goals exclusively with the Shark team, so getting four take-outs before scoring a goal was a real change up.

Corsair was able to throw sBrisket, vFangtooth, and Grace off, while on the other side of the pitch, while trying to kill the ball, Jac pushed Harry off.  After that, vSakana got the ball to Siren who moved up, protected by Kraken, and was able to score.

I need more practice because it took a lot of work to position, drag, and push everyone. It was one of the longest games I've played. I wouldn't have been able to do it using a chess clock.

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That's what I have noticed when I play Corsair as well. The games just seem to last so much longer in general. I think that is just a symptom of me needing more practice though.

Out of curiosity, who is on your standard Corsair team?

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My usual Corsair team is Tentacle (obvious), Kraken (same)  Siren (usually o for mz2 lure, sometimes v because dread gaze and ball), Jac (for lot of push including friendly one helping with staying safe with the border of the pitch without activation of the others), Hag (quite the same, and don't need inf). I could See someone go to let some Sakana enter, to do damage instead of push out. oSakana if there is lot and lot of armor and or, you lack some cover to protect your "front line". vSakana if you're afraid them escaping your net and not being able to kick them out in one activation, or if you absolutely need a successful blind/Goad. problem with Sakana, particularly v, is that he is less resilient than most other member of the team (Tough Hide sturdy, close control, tough hide, 5/1, lot of hit point, feared. oSak has poised and  cover, which most of the time make him resilient, but vSak has nothing to help him (especially, no dodge in column 1) and losing him always mean you lose 1 influence.

 

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That mirrors my team, but I did use vSakana instead of Hag, simply because I don't have her currently.
I certainly understand the appeal of Hag's movement abilities, but I did find Fancy Footwork useful against the Order. His ability to charge someone at 10" and steal the ball from someone another 4" is pretty amazing to close the net... I found it very necessary against Mist and sBrisket.

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On 12/10/2018 at 2:12 PM, mbdeyes said:

That mirrors my team, but I did use vSakana instead of Hag, simply because I don't have her currently.
I certainly understand the appeal of Hag's movement abilities, but I did find Fancy Footwork useful against the Order. His ability to charge someone at 10" and steal the ball from someone another 4" is pretty amazing to close the net... I found it very necessary against Mist and sBrisket.

I will have to try vSakana against Order. That sounds like a useful situation to cover. One of my good friends has been playing Order exclusively as well.

I have been trying to branch out and use more models now that I have a bit more experience with the game and vSakana is one of those models I haven't used much yet.  Though that is admittedly because his box is on the way yet from Black Friday purchases. 

When playing Order, do you prefer Shark or Corsair as captain?

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I see Fathom in a lot of the team lists. 

Does she bring a lot to the pitch? 

I have ordered her, and am just waiting for her to arrive. 

I've been out for awhile, and was mostly a huge Shark player.  I  used to run Corsair with A&G, what is the player that is being run in place of A&G now?

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1 hour ago, Ragnar Rok said:

I see Fathom in a lot of the team lists. 

Does she bring a lot to the pitch? 

I have ordered her, and am just waiting for her to arrive. 

I've been out for awhile, and was mostly a huge Shark player.  I  used to run Corsair with A&G, what is the player that is being run in place of A&G now?

Kraken 😉

A decent 6 is Corsair, Squid, Kraken, Hag, Fathom and a flex. Jac is possible to bring more ring-out pressure, and more reach for Drag due to Battering Ram.

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1 hour ago, Ragnar Rok said:

I see Fathom in a lot of the team lists. 

Does she bring a lot to the pitch

Fathom is insanely quick. Debately quicker even than Shark. She's got a 7"/9" move, Acrobatics and a 4" heroic dodge. This  means that  she can  move 15" for 2 INF. The re-rolls on both kick and tacs makes her pretty reliable if she isn't loosing dice due to armour and crowd-outs.

She's fish's best dedicated striker and as close to an auto-include as you are going to see in the team

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