Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
DoctorD

Blacksmith matchup, help wanted.

Recommended Posts

What would one play, and how, into blacksmiths?

Tried out Smoke, Flask, vCalculus, Crucible, Venin, Vitriol. Played poorly as the inexperienced player I am, but ended up 0-12... And now, I'm at a loss (figuratively and literally) what to do. I'm thinking swapping Crucible or Vitriol for Mercury for some extra fire and to reduce threat ranges? Or getting OKatalyst in there to knock someone down to enable Venin to deal some damage?

Any ideas or feedback is welcome, I'm just curious how to best play into a goal threatening (with Alloy) team that has excellent damage and good armor. Just give away first goal to Alloy and try to play cagey and stay away? Or go for some kind of ranged game perhaps?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So I played into Blacksmiths at an event the other day. Smoke, Flask, veteran Calculus, Crucible, Mercury, Venin vs Anvil, Sledge, Farris, Alloy, Furnace, veteran Cinder. The game ended a fairly comfortable win for the Alchemists 12-4. 

I think the trick is to victimise the Apprentices. Alloy having 12 health means that Smoke can 1-round him (3 x Infuse + Legendary). Put 4 influence on Venin and make use of Coagulate and he can easily account for 12-13 health. Even the Masters become viable targets after a couple of rounds of 3 condition damage. Oddly, despite all the armour, Alchemists can probably outlast Blacksmiths in a grind because of the condition damage. Any Burning that's put on Alchemists players can be used to fuel abilities likes Reduction or Great Balls of Fire. In a lot of cases, if the Blacksmiths get the conditions, they most likely are stuck with them for a turn.

The other thing is to make sure you have viable goal threats that they need to respect. Veteran Calculus can manufacture a goal out of nowhere, and Crucible can certainly set one up. It makes it much harder for them to set up all the Apprentices if they have to plan for your strikers stealing the ball as well as trying to counter the condition game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for the feedback!

I'm just really worried by the ability of blacksmiths to build a lot of momentum as soon as they get into one of my models. And with them being able to one round my players with like 4-5 momentum gain and I'm at zero cause of character plays to setup the conditions they can just heal back up.

I'm thinking just accepting an Alloy goal on turn 1 if I kick, try to avoid giving him a charge target (which is pretty hard considering he threatens 20" non linear with Iron and Hearth) to ensure he can't build lots of momentum and dodge 8" after scoring. Then attempt to setup turn 2 to nuke him with character plays, I guess? And not get devastated by vCinder in the process...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, PanzerHarris said:

So I played into Blacksmiths at an event the other day. Smoke, Flask, veteran Calculus, Crucible, Mercury, Venin vs Anvil, Sledge, Farris, Alloy, Furnace, veteran Cinder. The game ended a fairly comfortable win for the Alchemists 12-4. 

I think the trick is to victimise the Apprentices. Alloy having 12 health means that Smoke can 1-round him (3 x Infuse + Legendary). Put 4 influence on Venin and make use of Coagulate and he can easily account for 12-13 health. Even the Masters become viable targets after a couple of rounds of 3 condition damage. Oddly, despite all the armour, Alchemists can probably outlast Blacksmiths in a grind because of the condition damage. Any Burning that's put on Alchemists players can be used to fuel abilities likes Reduction or Great Balls of Fire. In a lot of cases, if the Blacksmiths get the conditions, they most likely are stuck with them for a turn.

The other thing is to make sure you have viable goal threats that they need to respect. Veteran Calculus can manufacture a goal out of nowhere, and Crucible can certainly set one up. It makes it much harder for them to set up all the Apprentices if they have to plan for your strikers stealing the ball as well as trying to counter the condition game.

Same idea with the Masons. Smiths are actually pretty squishy once you get through the armor, and condition damage does exactly that. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have been playing this match up a lot and am also looking for tips and advice, games have been very close.  My opponent almost always takes Burnish which can strip poison and knockdown so you have to play around that.  Sledge, V Cinder or even Cast seem to be able to take out most models in one round.  Finding myself generally behind in the momentum race.  Been taking O Calc but wondering if using vet to hit them with Sticky bomb to add the move penalty combined with typically being on fire might be the play.

Also I don't think Smoke is one rounding Alloy, the odds of hitting 3 infuse without bonus time just isn't there and I'm not sure we have or can spare the momentum.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm going to give the lawyer's answer - I said can one round him, not will. 😁

Burnish is a pain to deal with, but it can be done. It's worth noting that as per the Lawyer's Guild thread, there's nothing Burnish can do about Chemical Breeze, so if you're careful with your activation order you can still spread Burning and Poison. 3 condition damage is 20-25% of an Apprentice's hit points.

Having played into Blacksmiths a few more times I've moved to Naja as mascot. An Unpredictable 5+/0 model with a 2" reach holding the ball is very difficult for them to deal with, especially as the snake is a 6/8 move. It's certainly been enough in games to stop the kick off goal - retrieve the kick off, pass the ball to Naja and dodge the mascot back. 

Under no circumstances should you try and scrum with these guys. Sledge can get to momentous 6 damage without rolling a dice (3 auto hits from Piledriver plus 2 auto hits from Instruction = momentous 6 on 5). That makes our high defence pretty much worthless. You're much better off using ranged character plays and conditions to sap wounds from the Apprentices then using Smoke or Venin as a finisher, whilst playing the football game. Crucible is basically Mist with a larger base and ball retrieval whilst veteran Calculus is an excellent goalscorer, with Smoke herself as very capable backup. That should be enough for the 2 goals you need whilst the conditions set up the kills.

You also need to be very conscious of positioning. Keep your models apart and make the Blacksmiths commit to you in order to take out a player. They'll be able to get takeouts, but if you can make them leave Sentinel or their protective auras to do it, it becomes easier to pick them off in return.

Blacksmiths are a nasty matchup and you have to assume that you're going to lose players. There's no way around that. But you can stop them scoring these days whilst playing your game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

oCalc + Mercury into Blacksmiths = 

Image result for laughing tom cruise

Blind + Burning = A lot of dead apprentices and a pile of masters who can't do f*ck all. 

Smoke, obviously. Naja is a good call as well. Crucible is good because "Hey, I'mma just steal the ball from 4" away reaquik oh and yerburnin kthxbai" is in the running for the best character play in the game, not to mention all the other tech she brings to the table. I'd probably take Vit for my 6th since she can run circles around them and you're on a 2-2 or 3-0 plan for sure, and Clone helps go the distance for a quick close out. Could just as well go Venin for the 6th if you suspect your opponent is gonna kill the ball or turtle, since that extra armor does WOOOOOOOOORRRRK for days and he melts apprentices from hell to breakfast. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

See, its the ball kill and the momentum that are the biggest challenges, Crucible doesn't work, burnish keeps it turned off all game. I am thinking Vitriol might be the answer 2" and clone.   But their ball kill tech is really strong.  Also, you cant get any deeper than 1-2 on your playbook and they are just stacking momentum.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/30/2018 at 11:05 AM, Getzome1 said:

See, its the ball kill and the momentum that are the biggest challenges, Crucible doesn't work, burnish keeps it turned off all game. I am thinking Vitriol might be the answer 2" and clone.   But their ball kill tech is really strong.  Also, you cant get any deeper than 1-2 on your playbook and they are just stacking momentum.

They have a ton of Kill the Ball, sure, but that has to be a free ball. If you're letting them turn that on, there's a problem. 

How exactly does Burnish counter Crucible? It's no different from playing in to Esters, except at least with Burnish you get the burning back. If we were Butchers tossing out Bleed and KD and stuff, that'd be a different discussion, but as it is, as Alchemists, Reduction only counters a little poison, since the burning half of the equation is something we're going for anyway and they're doing us a favor. 

Reinforced Plating is a just a bouncing tough hide resilience,  and not too hard to play around. 

Positioning and attrition is what's going to bring this home. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, TheBriarfox said:

They have a ton of Kill the Ball, sure, but that has to be a free ball. If you're letting them turn that on, there's a problem. 

How exactly does Burnish counter Crucible? It's no different from playing in to Esters, except at least with Burnish you get the burning back. If we were Butchers tossing out Bleed and KD and stuff, that'd be a different discussion, but as it is, as Alchemists, Reduction only counters a little poison, since the burning half of the equation is something we're going for anyway and they're doing us a favor. 

Reinforced Plating is a just a bouncing tough hide, and not too hard to play around. 

Positioning and attrition is what's going to bring this home. 

Not the rule ”Kill the ball”, he means ball killing (ie keeping it out of the game).

And Burnish counters Crucible since Reinforced plating will negate Great balls of fire.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Falkman said:

Not the rule ”Kill the ball”, he means ball killing (ie keeping it out of the game).

And Burnish counters Crucible since Reinforced plating will negate Great balls of fire.

I'm aware. But the point remains, if you're letting them get ahold of things to that extent, you're doing something wrong. 

By that logic then we might as well concede against Esters and Cogs and the Union and Order and any other team that has Reliance, then, eh? 

Even if they put the caphat on Burnish, with as much range as we have to throw around and as much range as he projects with 6", it's entirely plausible that a single Mercury activation can eat RP for the turn. You can't JUST toss conditions, you have to be smart about it. Play a little more conservatively turn 1, really lean on that bomb Smoke activation, and use the rapidly mounting attrition to force their hand.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think I have lost this match-up yet when receiving,  but when kicking I'm finding this becomes a really tough match-up.  Just hoping to have a tactical discussion about who to bring and how to approach.  So lets go over a couple tough points and let me pose a couple questions.  I have found that if I try and apply kick pressure, I end up not being successful and losing that model.  If they have the ball on Iron, and standing next to burnish, that's both close control and Reinforced plating.  Also RP is not a forced trigger so they can save it for crucible, i'm finding crucible to just not be worth a slot in this match up, but maybe I am wrong.   Mercury is a superstar and tends to be a big source of damage as well as MOM generation.  That said, getting anyone close enough to apply these effects, opens them up to just being deleted by V.Cinder and Sledge.  A forted up BS team is very challenging to bring down, plus Anvil captain providing that turn of tough hide and Stoic on a round it really matters.  Is Vet Kat a consideration here just for his ability to push/KD and Ground Pound?   And while yes we can do some very decent damage at range, it means a turn we are most likely generating close to 0 momentum where as if they get any engagements they are generating 4-5.  

 

Not saying its an unwinnable match-up, but you need a goal to win this, i don't think you are outracing to 6 takeouts and while "haha burning and poison, kk i win bai" works for alchs more than not i dont think its enough in this match up.  In certain lineups, getting the ball is incredibly challenging and im wondering what people are doing and who they are bringing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Vet Kat is a bad idea. He's too slow and has to get too close to a group to be of any real value, and his statline is garbage. He'll evaporate before he can touch anyone. Sledge alone eats him for breakfast. 

On 12/3/2018 at 3:13 PM, Getzome1 said:

I don't think I have lost this match-up yet when receiving,  but when kicking I'm finding this becomes a really tough match-up.  Just hoping to have a tactical discussion about who to bring and how to approach.  So lets go over a couple tough points and let me pose a couple questions.  I have found that if I try and apply kick pressure, I end up not being successful and losing that model.  If they have the ball on Iron, and standing next to burnish, that's both close control and Reinforced plating.  Also RP is not a forced trigger so they can save it for crucible, i'm finding crucible to just not be worth a slot in this match up, but maybe I am wrong.   Mercury is a superstar and tends to be a big source of damage as well as MOM generation.  That said, getting anyone close enough to apply these effects, opens them up to just being deleted by V.Cinder and Sledge.  A forted up BS team is very challenging to bring down, plus Anvil captain providing that turn of tough hide and Stoic on a round it really matters.  Is Vet Kat a consideration here just for his ability to push/KD and Ground Pound?   And while yes we can do some very decent damage at range, it means a turn we are most likely generating close to 0 momentum where as if they get any engagements they are generating 4-5.  

 

Not saying its an unwinnable match-up, but you need a goal to win this, i don't think you are outracing to 6 takeouts and while "haha burning and poison, kk i win bai" works for alchs more than not i dont think its enough in this match up.  In certain lineups, getting the ball is incredibly challenging and im wondering what people are doing and who they are bringing.

Generally speaking, 2-2. You're far more mobile than they are and can play the edges better. 
The kills will almost always come from apprentices, so focus there. Condition damage avoids mitigation, so a couple of breezes, a Smoke Legendary, and a Venin Heroic = a couple of really dead apprentices. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×