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Jynxed85

S4 Line ups

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What type of line ups are people trying for the different captains? Ive only got 4 games in so far with 3 of them being Smoke.

Smoke/Flask/Venin/oCalc/Mercury/oKat.

Midas/Flask/Vitriol/Mercury/oKat/oCalc

The Midas list is the one Im struggling with the most. It just doesn't feel as free flowing as the Smoke list. 

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I'm finishing up painting my Alchemists, so they haven't hit the table yet for S4. Here's what I'm planning to run:

Smoke, Flask, Venin, oKat, Mercury, Flex. The flex would likely be oCalc, Compound, or Crucible, with oCalc being the default. So my list is similar to yours, how did you like it? 

I think Merc/oKat/Venin serve as a somewhat brawly core to help leverage the condition game to some take outs.

Midas is tougher, but probably because I'm partial to Smoke. I'd probably go: Midas, Flask, two of Vitriol/vCalc/Crucible, oKat, Mercury.

I'd mainly try to go more heavy on strikers-types so that they can retrieve the ball and enable goal scoring well. My thoughts are that Midas has to rely more heavily on the goal game than Smoke, but doesn't really offer a lot more to enable it or just steal the show himself (like Shark). It's not like Smoke has much trouble scoring a goal when she needs to, and she is just miles ahead in the condition game. So, I wonder if that is part of the reason things don't really flow is that Midas doesn't help things out that much.

Would be interested to see if others have some creative options in their lists, though.

 

 

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Leaning towards the Smoke/Flask/Venin/oCalc/Mercury/oKat. core but really want to give Crucible some table time

Haven't played any S4 yet and I already miss Decimate

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38 minutes ago, Dandyman said:

Leaning towards the Smoke/Flask/Venin/oCalc/Mercury/oKat. core but really want to give Crucible some table time

Haven't played any S4 yet and I already miss Decimate

Yep, I've always liked Crucible as a model and definitely want to see how she works in different team comps. Strangely, her Covalence ability seemed to be one of the stronger things she brought to the table in S3... It seemed like the reason you would consider bringing her. Now, I think that is needed less as Alchemists can just reapply conditions so easily, so she's probably more valued as a 2 inch reach ball handler who can strip the ball easily, with Covalence being a nice bonus. The 4/0 defense hurts a lot though.

What do you miss most about Decimate? The momentous damage or the second wind?

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Is anyone actually doing well with Midas?  I’ve given up on him ever being the right captain pick, myself.

 

Just the other day I thought I had him in the perfect position: Top of turn 2 and Midas has the ball.  He’s roughly 8” from Sledge and Sledge, in turn, is just over 4” away from Anvil.  So I have a plan (1)Sprint Midas to Sledge (2)Pop legendary (3)Swing 3 times. I’m expecting a counter attack here, but no big deal.  I can push/dodge, tackle, push/dodge and still be in good shape to have Sledge out of tutelage range before I go to goal. (4) Acrobatics (5) Shoot goal (6) Run the Length to safety.

But Midas.

I net only 1 success in my first attack (a whole damage!) and lose the ball to the counter.  So I steal it back, punch again for a momentum and at this point I realize I cannot get to goal without double dodge into Actobatics, so that’s what I do.  The goal is shot and Sledge beats Midas to death before I activate Midas again.  6 influence and 2 VP was traded for 4 VP and 1 momentum.  And it wasn’t even “bad dice”.  Against a 4/1 Midas is only 66% to reach column 2.  In a sense I’m lucky I missed first off, rather than later.  Charging wouldn’t have helped either, even if I beat the loooong odds and hit the 6 column it’s only a single dodge until I can use my legendary.

 

By contrast Smoke scores the same goal for only 4 inf and is potentially safer from retaliation.

 

I guess my point is Midas looks like the player most likely to ride the pine in a 12 man roster because he simply doesn’t work very well.

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I'm still a rookie player, with only a few games under my belt. I've played Smoke almost exclusively in S3, but liked the more 'hands-on' game that a Midas team brought. So I'm really happy with the S4 changes to Alchemists as a whole.

I find Crucible to be almost an auto-include now. I've had a lot of fun with her by using Reactive Solution to trigger Great Balls of Fire, and still having her full stack of influence to play around with. Having Beaker Keeper on her makes her extra slippery since you get the Acrobatic for free as well. I really like the style.

I also really like Venin now as a realiable source of damage. Picking the right target is crucial, but he reliably poisons everyone around him through Acid Rain, which combo's nicely into Coagulation. My opponents also love to hate Melting Body.... 4/2 is a bitch

My usual lineup is Smoke/Flask/Crucible/Venin/Mercury/Flex (with the flex usually being VetCalculus)

I also struggle to use Midas effectively. I agree that Smoke does the same job more smoothly... I might just be using him wrongly, which got me thinking that he's not the super solo striker anymore (note: I have never played him when he was, I'm too new to the game). Now he seems to be more of a team player, by which I mean that he needs a bit more setup to succeed. This is probably why I still struggle to use him, because positioning and setup are still tricky for me.

Anyway, just my two cents.

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6 hours ago, DrDoak said:

 

What do you miss most about Decimate? The momentous damage or the second wind?

Bit of both to be honest, Second Wind was handy early for Merc or Calc to run, bomb, retreat and then the consistent mom/damage on damaged targets mid to late

Got a game in with Venin tonight and he's legit as a Decimate replacement, 4/2 is awfully tanky by Alky standards

Tried Crucible, way simpler to get work done with her but she's very squishy so limiting retribution is going to be the thing, although maybe treating her as a thump magnet is the trick, taxing MP and limiting options might be enough to balance for the 2pts she'll likely give away

Edited by Dandyman
grammer

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My favorite 6 are Smoke, Flask, Katalyst 1, Vennin, Crucible, and a flex pick.

Smoke is really a lot of fun to play. She can easily switch from scoring goals to inflicting damage and/or conditions all while jumping around the board. I don't see myself using Midas. He's just not as fun and can't come close to the damage output Smoke can do. Especially against tough hide teams. The team has so many other goal threats that I don't miss him.

I have Flask follow around either Calculus or Mercury to give free AOEs. He never gets influence and thats just fine with me.

Katalyst and his KD/external combustion sets up Venin who does a reliable 7-11 damage. The 2 of them are also great at generating a good chunk of momentum.

Crucible is one of my favorite models. Tackle at range is awesome. I had a game where I was able to save her advance by stealing the ball for free with great balls of fire and reactive solution. Then she sprinted away and banged home a goal with her 18 inch goal threat. Her tax on rest and encourage is just fantastic as well. I try to position her behind Katalyst and Venin to be in range of the scrum to use her covalence until its her time to shine to minimize her low def/arm combo. 

If I feel like having another reliable damage dealer Ill bring along Mercury. He's just as effective but not as resilient as Venin. If I want another goal threat I'll take Vet. Calculus against high health or beaty teams to go for the 3-0. If I want blind against some super scary model I'll take Calculus 1.

Im really excited about S4. I like that there are so many options for model choice based on play style. Its going to be a lot of fun getting in games with this team.

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11 hours ago, Bertwemet said:

 

If I feel like having another reliable damage dealer Ill bring along Mercury. He's just as effective but not as resilient as Venin. If I want another goal threat I'll take Vet. Calculus against high health or beaty teams to go for the 3-0. If I want blind against some super scary model I'll take Calculus 1.

 

Venin is great one on one, Mercury melts groupy scrums. Nothing says lovin' like setting 2/3rds of the enemy team on fire for 2 influence. 

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I think having played 25 games this new alchemists my six is:

-Smoke f**king Queen of guildball 
-Flask free CP
-Venin aka Poisonkillall
-Okat KD boy
-Mercury fireballs and free CP from flask
-Crucible 18' threat and synergy 

-Naja inside in matches against hunters and the church.

-Compound inside vs church and butchers

-Snakeskin inside vs fish and mirror alchemist  

Sell me your team idea of alchemists for this season 😉

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2 hours ago, MechMage said:

What does Snakeskin do for you?  Do you try to kill the ball and out fight fish and the mirror?

yes i use for kill the ball i think is so good for this job

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When it comes to lineups I feel the new crucible is soo good! I know alcs have some pretty solid staples 

Mercury, ocalc, okat, whose everyone dropping out to try new crucible. I played Midas off and on in season 3 and 1 game with him season 4. Felt he was an annoying striker but then sat in the back field and occasionally generated momentum for me. Leaving vitriol to score. I would think dropping vitriol may be the way to go but I feel she is just such a valuable striker. Maybe drop calc as when I play I always tend to find it hard to give her inf. Most going to okat for kd then Mercury for dmg. Vitriol for goal threat, Midas for threat/ momentum generation.

just curious about everyone’s thoughts :) 

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After much experimentation (seems appropriate for Alchemists) I've ended up with a fairly settled starting lineup;

Smoke
Flask
Veteran Calculus
Crucible
Mercury
Venin

I'll switch in Naja for Flask against footballing teams, and maybe bring in Compound for Mercury as well. 

The Katalysts can be brought in, depending on whether I think I need them. oKatalyst is the only Alchemist who can knock anyone down and vKatalyst is a great focus damage brawler.

Vitriol will come in when I need to chase down fast opposing teams. Yes, her threat is a straight line, but it's a very long line.

If I'm on the bottom tables or just generally playing for laughs then I might bring Midas. He needs more table time before I can unlock him properly. His main problem is that Smoke just ticks all my boxes and is more fun at the same time.

The only player I don't see myself ever using is oCalculus. The veteran version is such a good goalscorer and ball retriever, and is the 1st model I draft after captain and mascot without fail.

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I was a Midas fanboy in S3, and so I've been focusing on figuring him out in S4.

He's uhh...yeah. If you are looking for a real advantage of why to take him over Smoke, go ahead and skip the rest of this post. There are like 2 corner cases and matchup or two where you might need his subpar Lure outside of the first turn, which appears to be the only reason to drop Midas in.

The Midas teams which I've had success with are 3-0 teams, and like I've been hinting at, the team next needs to nothing from Midas himself to win. When doe does contribute, it has been towards a game that Crucible, Vitriol, Venin etc. has won, and Midas is just piling on trying to end the game quicker.

My most successful lineups have been:

 

Midas, Flask, Vitriol, Crucible, VCalc, and Venin - which is just pure scoring using Venin as the setup piece, and

 

Midas, Flask, Vitriol, Crucible, OKat, and Venin - a team which threatens a 2-2 but is still honestly a 3-0 team.

 

 

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I know it's super helpful but I'm pretty much Smoke/Flask/Flex4.


I fully believe that drafting correctly and responsively to your opponent's picks is more important for us than any other guild, and that saying "This is my 6" is doing yourself a disservice.


It sounds weird, but I've kind of tried to get out of the mindset of "what's my 6" and go into a draft with a Proactive reactionary style. Less of a "build my 6 because I want them to do x" but more "I'm up against a team that is likely to try x, and so my best plan is y, so which of my players will come together best to do that in this particular scenario". 



Footbally teams usually see Crucible, Mercury, Compound and a fill based on the specific team. 
Scrummy teams usually pick up Venin (depending on the opposing stat-line) and OKat and then draft in response from there. 

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Not so much out-football them as reduce their ability to football as well, and then fill in the gaps from there. Fish are a good example. You're never going to beat them at a straight ball game, so you use Compound to mess with the mom math and shut down an early goal run, and then from there lean on the fact that you can pivot to a more damage oriented stance with Crucible (who hands out conditions and can steal the ball for a pittance of 2 inf) and Merc or Venin depending, to play more a 2-2 game and take advantage with the takeout openings to score on, say, a Smoke Legendary turn. 

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12 hours ago, irondesk said:

That makes sense, thanks.  Gotta say, these new alchemists sound like so much more fun to play this season!

The skill bar has raised some, that's for sure, but so has the ceiling, and the things they can pull off now with a little skilled play are astonishing. 

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