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Brick's blind spot

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Hello everyone,

I've been testing out the implications from Brick's new short arms. 
Specifically, I believe there is now a blind spot, directly opposite Brick that a 2inch reach attacker can take advantage of.

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I've tested it a few different ways, but effectively, brick has to be within 1 of VetDecimate, and can only travel 6 inches (represented by the red aura around brick.)

The spot 6 inches away whilst within 1 of Vet Decimate (arbitrary attacker) will not clear Harmony's base.

The above is based on Brick's front of his base being 4 inches exactly from the front of Harmony's, which if I'm not mistaken ensures he has the 'most' room to maneuver, whilst still being able to counter charge any attacker. (excluding mallet/hearth/thresher)

So if i'm not mistaken, Brick's counter charge can be negated by any reach 2 model. 

Happy to be proven wrong. 

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I mean, that hardly is surprising.

The change to his melee range had the intention to open up more counterplay to countercharge to bring Brick's pickrate down.

Other things this affects is that a single mov reduction now reduces his bubble. Unpredictable Movement also offers more protection now.

Your example is even one that can be countered rather easily by bringing Marbles (which you still will if you bring Brick). His bubble can cover Brick's blind spot and a 2“ model that is placed to use it is also in position to be pushed out of melee with it's target by Marbles.

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12 minutes ago, Redtiger7 said:

Even the old Brick would've been blocked by that set up. Harmony's blocking his LOS to Decimate

I thought 30mm models couldn't block LoS to other 30mm models?

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As much as I am saddened by Bricks loss of 2" and the implications it has on his counter charge, it needed to be done. He was way too good at what he did. I mean in the end the counter charge is still really powerful, there are just more ways to play around it. Also we lost 1" on his melee in exchange for a buffed up Granite, I am excited to field her in s4 its nice to see such a cool model getting some love.

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Brick is still very powerful.

Still a fantastic battery, and unconditional counter charge is still something your opponent has to play around (even if it is now easier to play around). Not to mention the double bubble with Marbles.

He won't be in every six anymore but he's not the guaranteed drop from my twelve either.

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On 10/10/2018 at 12:11 PM, Mako said:

I thought 30mm models couldn't block LoS to other 30mm models?

Can't find this in the S4 rule book, so I'm guessing that no longer applies.

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11 minutes ago, Redtiger7 said:

Can't find this in the S4 rule book, so I'm guessing that no longer applies.

It was never in the rulebook, it’s just basic geometrics.

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I think no one picked granite (0 at wtc) because she was just bad, slow and MZ1.  With MZ2 being the strongest trait to have in this game, going from 2 to 1 is huge. Brick was already paying the cost of the counter charge bubble with a 2/2 def stats, and a 1/6 kick and 4/6 move.


The change was mostly for internal balance and that's a miss i think. Especially if you consider how good (and simple) is wrecker now.

After playing around ~20 games as mason in S4, Brick has no place in the 6 and even maybe in the 12.  It's a bit sad because it's also an indirect nerf to honour.

If you consider the really great interaction between Vharm and Granite it really sack the brick choice and reduce even more the appeal of honour too. 

Honestly even if brick was still a mz2 like S3 i still take granite + wrecker with hammer all the time. With Captain honour it would be 50/50  depending on the match up and my game plan. At least it would be a decision, right now it's not ^^ 

To conclude  At first i didn't mind the brick nerf as the bubble was still intact. But now i'll revert it and even give a buff or change something to the kickoff line up.

It's Hammer Time !

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On 10/21/2018 at 4:06 AM, Lemminkäinen said:

Will people still use Brick in S4? Or, as Petepe above kinda implies, has Granite replaced Brick completely?

So one of the big benefits of the counter charge is how much clock time it wastes. The fact that there are more positions the other team can get into doesn't necessarily reduce the time spent measuring and thinking. I think the counter charge will be just as good this season. It's just that now granite is also really good and can do different things than brick. Granite combined with wrecker's and his new push you can trap 2-3 models. Combine granite with tower, Hammer and chisel you have a death bubble from which there is no escape. I feel like granite is a black hole while brick is a white hole.

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Counter charge is still good, but with only 1" melee he 's still in their melee zone so unless he get the KD and they have no momentum the still have a target to spend their inf on even if you do get them out of their intended target for the charge or what they were trying to do.

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From the S4 rulebook:

Charging
To perform a charge, the active model selects
a target enemy model that’s in its LOS and
pays any applicable costs (usually 2 influence).

Line of Sight
A model has LOS to a target spot,
another model, or a goalpost as long as an
unobstructed straight line may be drawn
from any point on the model’s base to the
target spot or to any point on the other
model’s or goalpost’s base.

A line is considered obstructed if it passes
through terrain that blocks LOS or if it
passes over the base of an intervening model
.

 

So the geometry would create a Counter-Charge deadzone (or 'blind spot') for a 2" melee range model keeping at the furthest distance from Brick, as shown in the diagram. But, due to Brick's base being 40mm, the geometry means there can never be a line-of-sight blind spot for a 30mm-base figure to hide behind another 30mm-base figure, since the line-of-sight rules states that line of sight can be drawn "from any point on the model’s base to...any point on the other model’s."

But if they were all 30mm-based figures, they should be able to block LOS if perfectly aligned, thanks to the geometry, since no line could be drawn at a tangent to the charging model and its target without also intersecting the intervening model's base at a tangent.

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2 hours ago, Benesato said:

From the S4 rulebook:

Charging
To perform a charge, the active model selects
a target enemy model that’s in its LOS and
pays any applicable costs (usually 2 influence).

Line of Sight
A model has LOS to a target spot,
another model, or a goalpost as long as an
unobstructed straight line may be drawn
from any point on the model’s base to the
target spot or to any point on the other
model’s or goalpost’s base.

A line is considered obstructed if it passes
through terrain that blocks LOS or if it
passes over the base of an intervening model
.

 

So the geometry would create a Counter-Charge deadzone (or 'blind spot') for a 2" melee range model keeping at the furthest distance from Brick, as shown in the diagram. But, due to Brick's base being 40mm, the geometry means there can never be a line-of-sight blind spot for a 30mm-base figure to hide behind another 30mm-base figure, since the line-of-sight rules states that line of sight can be drawn "from any point on the model’s base to...any point on the other model’s."

But if they were all 30mm-based figures, they should be able to block LOS if perfectly aligned, thanks to the geometry, since no line could be drawn at a tangent to the charging model and its target without also intersecting the intervening model's base at a tangent.

The line only has to touch the bases, so therefore it is possible to draw line of sight.

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39 minutes ago, Selfy said:

The line only has to touch the bases, so therefore it is possible to draw line of sight.

Hmm. I was thinking in terms of more traditional game conventions, where things are measured from above, and 'touching' rather than 'passing over' tend to be used.

But if a line were to be drawn touching the extreme outer edge of all three 30mm bases, then despite the fact that it's touching all three models, it would not technically pass over the intervening base. I assume that's what you mean. Weird, but this makes sense according to the letter of the rule. I guess I was wrong. Not sure why this isn't in the rules clarification thread, since surely it's a question that pops up fairly often. :)

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17 minutes ago, Benesato said:

Hmm. I was thinking in terms of more traditional game conventions, where things are measured from above, and 'touching' rather than 'passing over' tend to be used.

But if a line were to be drawn touching the extreme outer edge of all three 30mm bases, then despite the fact that it's touching all three models, it would not technically pass over the intervening base. I assume that's what you mean. Weird, but this makes sense according to the letter of the rule. I guess I was wrong. Not sure why this isn't in the rules clarification thread, since surely it's a question that pops up fairly often. :)

Yes, that's exactly what I mean and yes, it's come up before. I'm not going to go searching for it but there have been other threads about this in the past.

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I'm pretty sure there used to be a point in the Collected Clarifications that perfectly aligned models of the same base size don't block LOS.

But there isn't now...

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