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S4 Spoiler for Smoke and Vitriol

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I know it is early to comment but I don't like the changes to smoke. She was the one character that made me want to play this game and it seems like she will be so different now.

Maybe they were needed to refresh the gameplay and to not have all smoke games looks the same, I don't know, kinda sad for now

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I’m actually quite surprised that I’m really enjoying the look of this - they’re one of those guilds I always liked the idea of, but never really settled to the playstyle. This looks like it will be much more my style - you can get stuck in, and the other side will suffer for it. 

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7 minutes ago, Mako said:

 you can get stuck in, and the other side will suffer for it. 

Not sure how the Alchs will change on those parts but at the moment with low TAC, no big damage and no tankiness you can't really get stuck in with them

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23 minutes ago, Mezawockee said:

Not sure how the Alchs will change on those parts but at the moment with low TAC, no big damage and no tankiness you can't really get stuck in with them

You don’t go brawling (except with katalyst) for sure, but just getting close and firing off a few plays at the right time will be devastating, and fuel a goal run. 

When I say get stuck in, I more mean mess with the other team and use them to go for goals and opportune takeouts via conditions, not going toe to toe :)

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I enjoyed the control aspect of AoE's so sad to see them go. May still get it from Merc/Calculus I guess but will have to see how the other players are.

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The biggest  lure of AOE's wasn't that they dropped conditions, but that they could affect more than 1 victim. With thier decrease (though we'll have to see what the other Alchemists bring/loose) Cloud Jumper becomes not as effective. 

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That’s true, but vitriol now has a 4” pulse of burn... I imagine that only a few of the aoes stayed, but that alchemists also will get more and bigger pulses of conditiin application, and getting bonuses for people being affected. It will definitely be a different game style, less control and range and more jumping in and out. But then I have morticians if I want control, so I’m not too sad to see it reduced in several other guilds :D

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I don't have enough play experience to really judge the effect that this will have. But although I'm sad to see the 'copying-and-moving-AOE-templates-around-minigame' go (since that was one of the reasons the Alchemists appealed to me, knowing next to nothing about the game), I really like the new direction this is taking.

For me it sounds like having conditions on the enemy team will have benefits beyond the obvious damage and movement debuffs. If the new Vitriol is anything to go by, the new playstyle will actually show the Alchemists to be masters of the condition game, in a broader sense of the word - they can give and take conditions at will, with varying effects. And if Crucible, Venin en Katalyst keep their own conditions, they will make great partners for the new Vitriol.

So I guess the new 'minigame' will be spreading conditions all over the place on your way to score a goal, and taking them away when needed, to your best benefit. If all the Alchemists get variations on the Pulse abilities like Smoke and Vitriol have, maybe the enemies won't WANT you to come near?

But like I said, this is coming from someone with very limited experience.

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Not a fan of the new Chemical Shower. Feels bland, like they wanted to get rid of AOEs, but didn't really know what else to do, flavor wise, so they gave her a phoned in legendary that should have been a character play. Overall I like it tho.

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I am sooooo stoked for the new changes. Finally a condition game I can be proud of. Maybe now I can actually play Smoke again ;o Being able to just have the entire team poisoned and on fire at the same time the whole game. yessss... it makes me feel much less worse about all the mass condition removal they seemed to have added in season 4. 

Though, maybe there is hope that Midas won't just be a blank card! 

I also feel like Vitriol is going to get much more use out of Clone now, even if her threat ranged is a bit reduced. It will be interesting to see how she plays now. 

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 Smoke looks fun.  Good, DICELESS, burst damage.

 

Vitty looks a mess though.  17” goal theat?  That’s alright on a take out team, not an “aggressive goal scorer.”  Okay, clone works on parting blows, but good luck using it at 2/3 inf.  And what kind of “live the dream” scenario are they envisoning where she can use her heroic or her condition removal for any kind of real effect?  She’s 4/8 kick, and the rest is just wasted ink.  I’d love to see some reason to think Alchemists will be respectable in season 4.  So far there’s not a lot that’s inspiring.

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2 hours ago, TheBriarfox said:

Not a fan of the new Chemical Shower. Feels bland, like they wanted to get rid of AOEs, but didn't really know what else to do, flavor wise, so they gave her a phoned in legendary that should have been a character play. Overall I like it tho.

It is the character play infused, except it auto hits and can target more then one enemy. In Magical Christmas Land, she can hop into the middle of a scrum using her smoke bomb and cloud jumper, hit herself twice with Chemical Breeze hitting all 6 opposing models with both conditions, legendary, reap 6 momentum, then all opposing models take 3 from fire and poison. Three influence. Of course, for that to happen, Smoke has to go last for turn, and you will pay for it if you don't go first next turn, but you did just get 6 momentum. So, go first, smoke bomb/cloud jump out, infuse twice, and jog or sprint away. Or don't run and get some momentum.

 

8 minutes ago, Golden said:

 Smoke looks fun.  Good, DICELESS, burst damage.

 

Vitty looks a mess though.  17” goal theat?  That’s alright on a take out team, not an “aggressive goal scorer.”  Okay, clone works on parting blows, but good luck using it at 2/3 inf.  And what kind of “live the dream” scenario are they envisoning where she can use her heroic or her condition removal for any kind of real effect?  She’s 4/8 kick, and the rest is just wasted ink.  I’d love to see some reason to think Alchemists will be respectable in season 4.  So far there’s not a lot that’s inspiring.

Smoke damage is only diceless on her legendary. And Vitriol, with one momentum, 3 influence, and not engaged but with an enemy in 4 inches:
Heroic. Take fire off of Enemy, free charge ball carrier. If you wrap, momentous tackle and momentous 2 inch dodge. Clone, Shoot ball. Again, Magical Christmas Land, but not unbelievable. And if you need to bounce off of someone to get to the ball carrier, >< on 2, and clone on 3 (if they counter), both momentous. The big thing is, she can charge for either one momentum or free with not a difficult setup for alchemists to create.

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20 minutes ago, Golden said:

 Smoke looks fun.  Good, DICELESS, burst damage.

 

Vitty looks a mess though.  17” goal theat?  That’s alright on a take out team, not an “aggressive goal scorer.”  Okay, clone works on parting blows, but good luck using it at 2/3 inf.  And what kind of “live the dream” scenario are they envisoning where she can use her heroic or her condition removal for any kind of real effect?  She’s 4/8 kick, and the rest is just wasted ink.  I’d love to see some reason to think Alchemists will be respectable in season 4.  So far there’s not a lot that’s inspiring.

Maybe I'm reading the card wrong, but isn't it - assuming she's within 4" of an enemy with a condition (or a friendly one like Venin, Vitriol or even Katalyst):

Remove a condition, sprint 9", sprint another 9" and then kick 8"? Making her goal threat 26"?

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4 minutes ago, TheKing said:

Maybe I'm reading the card wrong, but isn't it - assuming she's within 4" of an enemy with a condition (or a friendly one like Venin, Vitriol or even Katalyst):

Remove a condition, sprint 9", sprint another 9"

She doesn't get an additional sprint, she gets to make her only one without spending influence.

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1 minute ago, Sid said:

She doesn't get an additional sprint, she gets to make her only one without spending influence.

*insert facepalm* Ofcourse... Thanks for clearing that up!

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You're right on Smoke, that's me having a stroke.  She still seem like more fun than in season 3 though.

 

But the Vitty plan is to have her start her activation unengaged but within 4" of an opposing player AND with a momentum AND with another player WITH the ball AND within 11" of her but ALSO within 10" of the goal AND in an unobstructed straight line?  That's some hot tech!  Hell, just starting with the ball and engaged with three influence allocated to her on spec and a momentum would be a unicorn moment.  

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Worth remembering that vitriol can take burning/poison from friendly players to trigger the free sprint/charge. Comes up more than you might think, especially if some venin/okat mechanics don't change

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14 minutes ago, Golden said:

You're right on Smoke, that's me having a stroke.  She still seem like more fun than in season 3 though.

 

But the Vitty plan is to have her start her activation unengaged but within 4" of an opposing player AND with a momentum AND with another player WITH the ball AND within 11" of her but ALSO within 10" of the goal AND in an unobstructed straight line?  That's some hot tech!  Hell, just starting with the ball and engaged with three influence allocated to her on spec and a momentum would be a unicorn moment.  

And ya'll wonder why I think another striker is a good idea 😛

 

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8 minutes ago, cabbagecannon said:

Worth remembering that vitriol can take burning/poison from friendly players to trigger the free sprint/charge. Comes up more than you might think, especially if some venin/okat mechanics don't change

Well, Burning Effigy is a wordy rule begging to be “streamlined” and Venin better change for his own sake.  Crucible too, for that matter.  And I’d rather not try to plan my goal runs around my opponent gifting me the conditions I need where I need them, when I need them.  It’s not a fun position to be in, risking over allocation if you get the play you want from your opponent, but under allocating if you don’t.

 

Like I said, this looks like a wreck. 

 

 

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They don't look as bad as I thought they might be (the free Charge can effectivly mean Vitriol is a 2/5 INF  player, and the new Chemical Breeze is not bad at all IF you have some brawlers, like Kat or a Cloned Vitriol in the middle) but I am certainly going to miss the control game. In a collection of 10 major Guilds and (currently) 3 minors, what are the control guilds? Morts and Hunters. 2/13. Punching and scoring shouldn't be the only strategies or the game will be less interesting. Some players get enjoyment from the careful placement and organisation of their teams - getting a Burning AoE in just the right spot can really turn a game around and create a challenge for the opponent. We don't want Guild Ball to go the way of Warhammer (here's my bucket of dice, remove your dudes, now you roll a smaller bucket of dice and I'll remove my dudes, ad infinitum), there needs to be challenges and puzzles for both players. Let's hope the Alchemists changes maintain a challenge for the opposing team as well as for the Alchemist players themselves.

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I'm not sad to see the control game go, it was uninteractive but I still don't see anything that dials the condition Takeout plan up. I personally loved whittling down multiple players at once and then having a turn come around where they all start dropping as vKat and Smoke start going in for their burst damage.

It seems like now they're forced to get close to make use of conditions but all the weaknesses of getting close are still present. Mostly that they die to stiff breezes.

For what it's worth I think Smoke's new MP Generation will help with that quite a bit. We'll see how it pans out.

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2 hours ago, Ranthoron said:
2 hours ago, Golden said:

 

Smoke damage is only diceless on her legendary. And Vitriol, with one momentum, 3 influence, and not engaged but with an enemy in 4 inches:
Heroic. Take fire off of Enemy, free charge ball carrier. If you wrap, momentous ta

Generally, I like the direction of the changes. While I did like the "control" aspect of the old Smoke play, it wasn't very interactive or fun for the opponent, so I can see why they changed it. I like making conditions more useful with interactions, because without support, many conditions were a nuisance, but required a lot of time for the effect to be felt (thus why the old Smoke game wanted 2-3 turns of staying away, laying conditions, and starving them of momentum to whittle them down at all). I think this will make conditions a bit more impactful in the short-term.

I do feel like Vitriol is perhaps a bit weaker as a striker, or at least more conditional (literally and figuratively). Losing the dodge for a "free" charge/sprint is influence efficient, but makes her goal threat more reliant on having targets to dodge off of for extra movement. However, other abilities in the guild (e.g., if Midas keeps lure of gold) may help compensate...

I agree with the concern of Alchemists having to get in the mix of things, yet still being very fragile. My hope is that, from the looks of things, they can apply conditions more readily and that will create incentives for the enemy to spread out and could generally inhibit offense (less move from fire conditions, less momentum because of resources spent curing conditions). I do think it also supports a case for trying to draft some kind of defensive pick to help us out with warding off threats, and to make us less reliant on oKat (in case we want vKat for damage!). Venin may help on this front as well, depending on how he gets altered.

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Season 4 is a whole new world. I for one welcome our alchemical slinging overlords.

Seriously though, I think this mechanic really defines the guild. We were a "condition game" team before who were decent with the ball. Hunters could access parts of that game, and then the rats came in too with their conditions.

Now we pull conditions off for boons, something that is so unique for Alchemists. I think it's super cool, although it's unclear how good it is going to be. Positioning is going to be essential.

One thing I am worried about, (which seems to be heading in that direction) is if each player has their own benefit for removing conditions. I would feel like it overloads opponents who aren't familiar with the guild if there are 4-6 different ways to gain from removing conditions. For that reason, I wouldn't be surprised to see one or both of the Kat's to have "I've been burnt before" as well.

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Vitriol on zero INF using a condition of a friend seems like really good value.

A free charge to trigger Clone and using the MOM to spew Fire around.

And her full stack with IBBB is of course sweet too.

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