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LabRat

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Morning my fellow fishermen! 

Seeing as everyone else is organising, thought I'd kick the ball off for us so to speak, with a summary of the team thus far. We have:-

3 strikers (Shark, oSanaka, Angel) 

2 attacking midfielders (vSanaka, vSiren) 

2 wingers (Grayscales, Siren) 

1 center midfielder (Hag) 

2 defensive midfielders (Jac, Corsair) 

1 center back (Kraken) 

 

What position do you think the Fishes need covering? 

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With fathom and horizon in mind, we could need some support for Corsaire with perhaps a little damage output (dreaming should be allowed ;-). So center or defensive midfielder or Center back. 

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See, I would like a goalkeeper type model to assist with the rush after we score. Someone with maybe low move, high distance kick, easy knockdown/tackle. Ice hockey goalie type thing. 

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Goalkeepers so far have been generally underwhelming and pretty bad at their job, and it’s definitely not a role we need since people generally shy away from scoring against fish anyway. With much of Corsair’s support about to be gone, I hope we can get a hold of a midfielder, preferably a central or attacking one.

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1) We aren't gonna get a damage dealer. Its just not going to happen.

2) In an increasingly footbally meta that s4 appears to be aimed towards having something that deals with snap back goals wouldnhelp a lot. I always struggle with honour cause she is so good at 6vp activations into shark fish. 

So I'm all in on the goalie. She looks cool and a goalie would be a fascinating design challenge. We really dont need more wingers/strikers..

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Gentle fishmen and fishwomen, its worth remembering two important things:

> How the UiC thing for vGutter turned out last year
> Same rules (and likely outcome) are in effect this year

So, with that in mind, I have an alternate strategy this year. Just accept in your heart that the other guilds (particularly the Butchers) are going to get who they want (either from the event itself of from SteamCon), and we'll just get the consolation prize (same as last year).

Disabuse yourself of any hype, expectations, or desires. They are all destined to remain unfulfilled, because we all (perhaps foolishly) play fish.

Instead, take the next few months off. Don't look at any of the rookie profiles, don't participate in any inter guild banter, don't pay attention, and in particular, don't submit any reports or participate. Maybe take up meditation, or real life fishing, instead. Then, when the event is said and done, we can come back all recharged to figure out how to make the Navigators work on their general release in November after SteamCon.

As for if the fish get a rookie, I wouldn't expect them to. I still half expect the Butchers to get 2 picks instead. So, just everyone disabuse themselves of anything about this event, and go take this event off.

Because the Navigators will require all that brainpower come November.

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37 minutes ago, Lyrael said:

Gentle fishmen and fishwomen, its worth remembering two important things:

> How the UiC thing for vGutter turned out last year
> Same rules (and likely outcome) are in effect this year

So, with that in mind, I have an alternate strategy this year. Just accept in your heart that the other guilds (particularly the Butchers) are going to get who they want (either from the event itself of from SteamCon), and we'll just get the consolation prize (same as last year).

Disabuse yourself of any hype, expectations, or desires. They are all destined to remain unfulfilled, because we all (perhaps foolishly) play fish.

Instead, take the next few months off. Don't look at any of the rookie profiles, don't participate in any inter guild banter, don't pay attention, and in particular, don't submit any reports or participate. Maybe take up meditation, or real life fishing, instead. Then, when the event is said and done, we can come back all recharged to figure out how to make the Navigators work on their general release in November after SteamCon.

As for if the fish get a rookie, I wouldn't expect them to. I still half expect the Butchers to get 2 picks instead. So, just everyone disabuse themselves of anything about this event, and go take this event off.

Because the Navigators will require all that brainpower come November.

This sounds like butcher propaganda, trying to dissuade fish from catching the victory they deserve.

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17 hours ago, Insidiously Mad said:

1) We aren't gonna get a damage dealer. Its just not going to happen.

While that could certainly be true, there is nothing set in stone about that.

Ratcatchers and Navigators are both described as very football-y guilds yet they still have multiple models with good damage potential, so Fish could very well receive a bump in that area as well, especially since the actual fighting guilds seem to have their fighting ability raised significantly while also seeing improvements to their football game thanks to the new core rules.

If fish end up only being able to win by goals then that both 1) goes against some of the design intent for the game described in both the Navigators and Ratcatchers blogs and 2) leaves them without options provided to other footballing teams and thus less able to play the game. I don’t think SFG wants either of those things to happen.

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But this is a football game - I am perfectly happy going for the 3-0 route. To cover it, I think we need longer, more accurate passes than other teams. Maybe more momentous pushes and dodges, and maybe a nifty trick or 2 to stay alive, but i think our core theme is a pure football game.

To that end, we often end up playing in the opponents half, which makes us vulnerable to the counter-score. Hence me wanting a goalie/defensive player to help delay those rushes. 

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8 minutes ago, LabRat said:

But this is a football game - I am perfectly happy going for the 3-0 route. To cover it, I think we need longer, more accurate passes than other teams. Maybe more momentous pushes and dodges, and maybe a nifty trick or 2 to stay alive, but i think our core theme is a pure football game.

To that end, we often end up playing in the opponents half, which makes us vulnerable to the counter-score. Hence me wanting a goalie/defensive player to help delay those rushes. 

I agree with this. At the moment, if you are playing into a team with a strong counter-goal, you want to (have to) play Corsair and fight. I play fish to play the scoring game. If I want take-outs, there are other guilds to choose from.

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We will get whatever rules the designers think the team needs regardless of which player we actually get, even the position keyword can often be vague and misleading when compared to what a model does on the field.

What we are ultimately competing for is a player name and fluff.

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19 minutes ago, LabRat said:

CUTLASSSSSSSSSSS!! 

I think a goalie is now definitely going to be a good investment, Skatha is disgustingly quick! 

Looking at the goalkeepers already in the game (Tenderiser, Compound, vVelocity and Skulk) I have to ask why? None of them are particularly good.

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42 minutes ago, Banjulhu said:

Looking at the goalkeepers already in the game (Tenderiser, Compound, vVelocity and Skulk) I have to ask why? None of them are particularly good.

I agree, they don’t generally stop scoring or make it much more difficult. The only goalkeeper who provides any form of challenge is Compound if he is carrying the ball himself.

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1 hour ago, Banjulhu said:

Looking at the goalkeepers already in the game (Tenderiser, Compound, vVelocity and Skulk) I have to ask why? None of them are particularly good.

 

1 hour ago, Falkman said:

I agree, they don’t generally stop scoring or make it much more difficult. The only goalkeeper who provides any form of challenge is Compound if he is carrying the ball himself.

 

Goalkeepers aren't there to completely prevent scoring as that would lead to a negative play experience, they just make it cost more resources whether that be influence, activation or time spent thinking about it on the clock..

Tenderiser, Compound and Pride all have "Rush Keeper" which means you either need to plan your movement to engage them and make the shot more difficult or find an angle the can't be charged at from.

vVelocity makes shots more difficult and more directly punishes failed attempts and Skulk is just obnoxious unless you just ignore him and accept the penalties on your shot.

You need to remember they aren't designed to prevent super strikers doing what they do, they are designed to reduce the ability of the average player sneaking a goal by being in the right place at the right time.

With that in mind, I feel "Cutlass" has thematically been designed with the intention of fitting alongside Corsair, vSakana, Jac and whoever else you fancy to enable the time for a 2/2 or 1/4, it's just upto you to decide whether you want her and can get her before the other guilds do.

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7 minutes ago, Redmaw said:

Goalkeepers aren't there to completely prevent scoring as that would lead to a negative play experience, they just make it cost more resources whether that be influence, activation or time spent thinking about it on the clock..

Tenderiser, Compound and Pride all have "Rush Keeper" which means you either need to plan your movement to engage them and make the shot more difficult or find an angle the can't be charged at from.

vVelocity makes shots more difficult and more directly punishes failed attempts and Skulk is just obnoxious unless you just ignore him and accept the penalties on your shot.

You need to remember they aren't designed to prevent super strikers doing what they do, they are designed to reduce the ability of the average player sneaking a goal by being in the right place at the right time.

Perfectly articulated. I would add that if this person could take a goal kick, and get it further up the field would be desirable too. Long bomb would be perfect. 

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2 hours ago, LabRat said:

Perfectly articulated. I would add that if this person could take a goal kick, and get it further up the field would be desirable too. Long bomb would be perfect. 

Yep, my thoughts exactly. The complaints about Goalkeepers not actually, you know, keep balls out of goals isn't invalid though. But look at Skulk - he's a Goalkeeper who really doesn't care much about being near the goal, Goal Rats ability aside (which is disappearing in S4 anyway).

However - Edge just went up. A Winger with (I'm assuming) Close Control, some decent speed and dodge jank. Hmmm. Sounds rather... Fishy?

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As far as how SFG will adjust the rookies to their new guilds, i think they have nothing in stone yet and when the draft is over they will use the fluff available to help design them. So no matter what we pick the player will have a fishermen flavor to them, so i wouldn't expect anything more powerful in damage dealing as vSakana or Kraken. It's obvious that the fish do the football game well, but honestly most players would agree that the 2-2 or 1-4 strategy is the fastest way to win for any team. So i think it would be best to try to fill that hole in our game. Using the fluff in the blog and looking at the fishermen with all there models available to them i made a list of my picks and why.

1)Cutlass: I personally think that she would make a great addition to the team, even though in most cases we have the upper hand in the football side of the game with no shortage of ways to get the ball off of models, having a keeper who can sit in the anchor position would be good to have for a Shark lead team. I don't know what they will do with Krakan, but he definitely does not help in the football side of the game, pitch control is his nich so i think it would be great to have another model to have sit in the back and help retrieve the ball would be awesome. Who knows she maybe have access to a :mom1: or :mom2: on that playbook.

2)Amber: Another area we could use help is in the middle of the pitch, which i think Amber would be great at providing for us. It is said that she is from the brewers and has similar qualities to Friday and Spigot. If you don't already know those models and what they are capable of doing, they would be fantastic in almost any fishermen line up i can think of. It is possible now to have anyother model with :KD:,:P:, and a decent kick. Only Corsair and Jac do this for us, and most of us don't even use Jac to begin with. Amber could also have to a heroic play to pass the ball around or just have a character play to do that.

3)Kami: This could be very interesting for us to have in the guild. It's obvious that she will be using character plays a lot, and not very football focused. What could be good to is having a way to effect the ball from a distance, even though we already have a couple of models that can do this it could be possible to knock the ball off a model for someone else to scoop up later. Or even better, a way for the fishermen to lower a models DEF and/or TAC. Shark only has stagger now so it would be helpful for a support model to do something similar.

4)Edge: So this rookie is defiantly a wildcard. Not much explained about her outside of the fact she can handle the ball well and works well with others. She is in the winger position so it can be implied that she will be fast, but really nothing that we don't already have. The only possible upside to bringing her on would be the chance that she will have a trait or character play to support the team, it what way? no clue.

5)Layne: We already have 3 strikers along with almost every model in the guild able to score on there own. I don't know what he could do for the fish, it doesn't seem like he could fill any area we need help in. Also from what the fluff is implying he sounds like a male version of Angel, a striker who spends most of the game doing nothing and is only good a scoring a goal, i am sure no one else wants another model like that on the team.

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2 hours ago, byronthebear said:

3)Kami: This could be very interesting for us to have in the guild. It's obvious that she will be using character plays a lot, and not very football focused. What could be good to is having a way to effect the ball from a distance, even though we already have a couple of models that can do this it could be possible to knock the ball off a model for someone else to scoop up later. Or even better, a way for the fishermen to lower a models DEF and/or TAC. Shark only has stagger now so it would be helpful for a support model to do something similar.

As a person that plays every guild, I will fight this tooth and nail (um, fin and tentacle?). Fish cannot have all the ball control toys. I'm not nuts about Engineers getting her, either...

2 hours ago, byronthebear said:

4)Edge: So this rookie is defiantly a wildcard. Not much explained about her outside of the fact she can handle the ball well and works well with others. She is in the winger position so it can be implied that she will be fast, but really nothing that we don't already have. The only possible upside to bringing her on would be the chance that she will have a trait or character play to support the team, it what way? no clue.

Oh, I dunno... I think she could be an asset on Fish - another fast threat on the outside, feeding whomever in the middle, and possibly sneaking in herself. And it really sounded like she has Close Control - I mean, who doesn't need more of THAT?

2 hours ago, byronthebear said:

5)Layne: We already have 3 strikers along with almost every model in the guild able to score on there own. I don't know what he could do for the fish, it doesn't seem like he could fill any area we need help in. Also from what the fluff is implying he sounds like a male version of Angel, a striker who spends most of the game doing nothing and is only good a scoring a goal, i am sure no one else wants another model like that on the team.

Yeah, if there's any team that doesn't need Layne, it's Fish. Probably not worth worrying about him, unless it starts to get clear that Fish are losing some speed or striking ability in S4.

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4 hours ago, landstander said:

Oh, I dunno... I think she could be an asset on Fish - another fast threat on the outside, feeding whomever in the middle, and possibly sneaking in herself. And it really sounded like she has Close Control - I mean, who doesn't need more of THAT?

I guess my point is that we have a couple of models that can do that job anyway. Before the Navigators we had Snakeskin as a union option but few people would use her at the time because she didn't bring enough that other models couldn't do in guild. So i just don't think another winger is what the fish need, thus why she is 4th in my book.

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11 minutes ago, byronthebear said:

I guess my point is that we have a couple of models that can do that job anyway. Before the Navigators we had Snakeskin as a union option but few people would use her at the time because she didn't bring enough that other models couldn't do in guild. So i just don't think another winger is what the fish need, thus why she is 4th in my book.

I see. Well, 5 more players are set to be scouted next week still.

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If the game is more football-centric then I would expect Goalie's to be getting significant bump up. If that happens, I really think Fish are going to want a good Goalie to help really perfect every aspect of their footballing game.  Cutlass just seems like an excellent choice.

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Knuckles is defiantly not like are other models, not to be taken as a negative, he could cover the take-out aspect to our game. I see him taking over for Fangtooth's spot, i don't know how much other players have used Fangtooth before but i have played him a couple of times in a Shark team and he did well to contribute to a 2-2 even though i won by 3-0. The threat of Fangtooth winning the game by take-outs was enough to shift my opponents strategy to stay safe rather than stopping my scoring. What do you guys think?

Reading more of his fluff he seems to be good at marking, could suggest a ability to move outside of his activation. Maybe something likes Skulk's lighting reflexes or counter charge. Also the mention of his iron jaw could mean tough hide or resilience as a defensive trait. 

Knuckles

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Knuckles is a very (or til now for me the most) interesting Player. He could be a very good corsaire Supporter. And we should Focus more on corsaire, cause with fathom and horizon we have new players, which are fitting a little bit more into the shark playstyle. 

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