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Free Cities Draft -All Butchers Read-

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The thing is that none of the rookies are going to be more killy than what we already have. No rookie is ever going to be more efficient than Boar or do more outright damage than Perfect Storm Boiler. Which is why we shouldn't be looking for more damage.

What we should be looking at is what we can't do right now.

We can already run a 6 man team of really efficient damage dealers and we've got technical models (Albeit ones that really need a buff to do what we want, like Tenderiser and V.Ox). What we can't do is play the football game around teams that are too resilient for us to properly chop apart. Looking at things like Brewers, Hammer-Counter-Charge-Masons and Regenerate 10 HP per Model per turn Farmers. Against those teams what we need is another way to play the game.

Yes, our football game is never going to be as strong as the fish but right now we barely even have the option to play football. Our two best football models are the veteran and non-veteran version of the same girl and whilst Fillet can play ball, she's got better things to be doing.

Layne gives us the option to run a team that can actually play to the 2-2 game not just well, but quickly.

#SmokedMeat

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10 hours ago, Selfy said:

Hi guys. I know most of you wouldn’t be worried about this, but in the lore Brisket has jumped ship to the Order, so Butchers need a new striker!

Apart from the obvious ramifications of emotional losing child labour, Layne’s your boy, I reckon.

2

Predictive text! Not quite sure what I was trying to say, but it wasn't that! 😂

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1 hour ago, Luthon1234 said:

I’m on board for the #smokedmeat train let’s get our striker 

I'm going to use Brisket led Order to give back to the Butchers. Oh, the Irony.

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17 hours ago, RTBailey said:

The thing is that none of the rookies are going to be more killy than what we already have. No rookie is ever going to be more efficient than Boar or do more outright damage than Perfect Storm Boiler. Which is why we shouldn't be looking for more damage.

What we should be looking at is what we can't do right now.

We can already run a 6 man team of really efficient damage dealers and we've got technical models (Albeit ones that really need a buff to do what we want, like Tenderiser and V.Ox). What we can't do is play the football game around teams that are too resilient for us to properly chop apart. Looking at things like Brewers, Hammer-Counter-Charge-Masons and Regenerate 10 HP per Model per turn Farmers. Against those teams what we need is another way to play the game.

Yes, our football game is never going to be as strong as the fish but right now we barely even have the option to play football. Our two best football models are the veteran and non-veteran version of the same girl and whilst Fillet can play ball, she's got better things to be doing.

Layne gives us the option to run a team that can actually play to the 2-2 game not just well, but quickly.

#SmokedMeat

I think I respectfully disagree with pretty much everything in this post, sorry.

I don't know why it's necessary that a rookie butcher wouldn't be as killy as boar or boiler.

What we can't do right now is kill fast enough to win by 6 take outs. Winning 2-2 is how butchers tend to win in S3.

When it comes to squaddies we have two strong out and out damage dealers in boar and boiler. Shank and meathook can put out a bit because of the 3 inf cap, gutter is limited by her mediocre playbook. IMO we could do with one more.

Also not being able to do some things well or at all is part of the playstyle of a particular guild. It's perfectly okay for butchers to be built for not scoring many goals.

Butchers have always been trailed as the team that is the best at dealing damage, but the fact that you mention the difficulties we can face against brewers, masons and farmers (which I only really agree that farmers cause us problems, but I'd add rage union to the list) shows that we're not doing what we were intended to. It's the other teams when faced with us should be looking to play the game another way, not us. Hence why more damage output is needed.

Our tech pieces, or control pieces as I'd prefer to call them to differentiate them from support pieces, don't work in S3. We might be able to imply they might improve in S4, but I think I'm changing my opinion that a control piece focused on messing with the opponents ball play might be a useful addition. But 

We already have a 2-2 game. We don't have a 6-0 game. Even knowing something of the S4 changes, I still think 6-0 will be elusive. That's why we need either someone tp slow down the enemy's scoring or speed up our damage output.

Anyway, disagreement is fine, feel free to vote for what you want, but I will never vote for Layne.

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trying For the 6-0 is what makes us sub par as a guild imo the creators have really gone out of their way to make sure that take outs is the worst way to win. Now things could change in s4 but I’m not gonna hold my breath I’d rather we gain another striker for lore reasons and to make our line up more diverse.

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1 hour ago, Luthon1234 said:

trying For the 6-0 is what makes us sub par as a guild imo the creators have really gone out of their way to make sure that take outs is the worst way to win. Now things could change in s4 but I’m not gonna hold my breath I’d rather we gain another striker for lore reasons and to make our line up more diverse.

You're probably right that trying for 6-0 is what makes us underperform, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't be arguing for a game where all win conditions are on the table.

In season 1 and 2 the game was tightly focused at the 6-0 and 4-1 end of things, with the occasional Shark 3-0 win. In season 3 things seemed to narrow to make 2-2 the "preferred" win state for all teams.

I argue that the game is better if all win strategies are equally viable, and that butcher should be a team that can viably achieve 6-0 wins like they did in S1 and 2. And I would argue to my fellow butchers players that we need an extra out-and-out killer if that is going to happen.

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I feel that I would be ok with Layne, but tend to agree with malladin about wanting extra damage output from our player choice.  If a player that has the damage output we're looking for doesn't get revealed in the coming weeks, I think it might be worth taking a look at Kami.  While I doubt her damage output will be through the roof I think there's something to be said for being able to reach out and touch somebody.  Additionally the description makes it seem like she'll be able to strip the ball from players at range to make it easier for us to score a goal, and more importantly more difficult for the opponent to.

With regards to her not liking the butchers, it's not like the guild hasn't dealt with that before.

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6-0 is something Steamforged have repeatedly said they want to move the game away from since season 1. Even Vet Rage teams tend to 4-1 because, as they've said, the game is Guildball. Not Guild-turn up and shank some guys on a pitch.

17 hours ago, malladin.ben said:

I don't know why it's necessary that a rookie butcher wouldn't be as killy as boar or boiler.

Because perfect storm Boiler is the highest output model in the game bar none and Boar is one of the two most efficient in the game. Boiler, assuming he gets his full load of bonuses (Which we all know is tricky at best and unlikely, but still possible) does 6-8 damage, assuming no wraps, per attack, for 24 - 32 damage in a single turn. And that's assuming no wraps, which in all likelihood if you've got the perfect storm off, he's probably getting due to crowd outs.

Likewise Boar gets anywhere between 0 (if he whiffs everything) and 6 momentum (if he hits a wrap on both his charges). There are barely any other models that are so Inf to Mom efficient. (O.Rage comes to mind for having basically the same rules as Boar)

18 hours ago, malladin.ben said:

What we can't do right now is kill fast enough to win by 6 take outs. Winning 2-2 is how butchers tend to win in S3.

I've consistently played the 4-1 game all through the last year and a half of playing exclusively Ox. I'm no star player, but it's just easier. (2 to 4 kills on an Ox Legendary turn, then score to end with Brisket)

Because at the end of the day, it takes far less influence and interaction to score a goal than it does remove a player. Brisket just needs 3 influence (if you've already given her the ball) and to be within 18" of their goal. And in doing so she'll score more VP's than any other butcher does with the same 3 influence.

And trust me, I LOVE going 6-0 when the opportunity presents itself. Ox, Princess, Boiler, V.Gutter, Meathook, Brisket (to keep the ball safe while I do so and / or hilariously deleting people with a 4 stack Brisket on the legendary turn because they think 'strikers can't kill people') are my usual suspects when it comes to playing the game.

But at the end of the day, I don't mind what you personally vote for. As long as you put reps in for Butchers, that's what matters.

 

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10 hours ago, number2648 said:

I feel that I would be ok with Layne, but tend to agree with malladin about wanting extra damage output from our player choice.  If a player that has the damage output we're looking for doesn't get revealed in the coming weeks, I think it might be worth taking a look at Kami.  While I doubt her damage output will be through the roof I think there's something to be said for being able to reach out and touch somebody.  Additionally the description makes it seem like she'll be able to strip the ball from players at range to make it easier for us to score a goal, and more importantly more difficult for the opponent to.

With regards to her not liking the butchers, it's not like the guild hasn't dealt with that before.

I like your thinking on Kami. We'll have to wait and see what the other rookies are looking like though. 

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Layne could be our best of both worlds, fun and random. He may not be competitive but, at least for me, isn't why I play the game. I think having a "random factor" tossed in would be rather fun. Perhaps he has something like Alloy and even Harrow. If he starts within a certain range to a friendly Captain, he gains a benefit of your choosing. For example, lets say he has two. +1/0" to his kick, or plus two tac. If he is out of range, it becomes random because the Captain isn't around to set him straight. 

That's just me though.

 

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I'm pushing for #SmokedMeat and getting Layne on board. Shoring up our biggest weakness, which is the fact we can only have 1 true footballer on the pitch at a time, is my biggest thought. Plus, we've got Cooks coming in a couple of months (Q1 next year?). There's no way that one or both of the crossover models from Cooks aren't going to be more ways to bring the hurt on people.

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Just now, RTBailey said:

I'm pushing for #SmokedMeat and getting Layne on board. Shoring up our biggest weakness, which is the fact we can only have 1 true footballer on the pitch at a time, is my biggest thought. Plus, we've got Cooks coming in a couple of months (Q1 next year?). There's no way that one or both of the crossover models from Cooks aren't going to be more ways to bring the hurt on people.

One of my theories was that cinnamon was going to be our crossover with roast. Which would bring us a decent striker with reach but I don’t know if I want to put my faith into that.

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Yeah, I'm not sure what we'll get from the cooks. But I mean, upside, if we do get Cinnamon and she's a goal scorer and we get Layne, that means we'd have 4 aggressive strikers to choose from, which is a hell of a lot nicer than our choice of 'which Brisket' we've got currently.

Plus, fluff wise, it makes MUCH more sense for Fillet to be looking to snag a striker now that the Butchers have lost their only true striker.

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I'm feeling really underwhelmed so far. There isn't one of them that really excites me yet, and only gaffer to go. I may just not bother this year. Was really looking forward to this, but the player reports have just left me feeling flat. Maybe gaffer will change that, but so far the name is putting me off.

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3 hours ago, malladin.ben said:

I'm feeling really underwhelmed so far. There isn't one of them that really excites me yet, and only gaffer to go. I may just not bother this year. Was really looking forward to this, but the player reports have just left me feeling flat. Maybe gaffer will change that, but so far the name is putting me off.

None of them probably feel 'Buther-y' because unlike, say, Morts or Brewers, Butchers don't really have much of an identity when it comes to fluff. Most of the team are Killers, but that isn't something that's easily written into a bit of background with it feeling... well, like the inverse of Kami? Too easy a fit? Too obvious?

But I do get you. I get the feeling a lot of people were hoping to see someone like Boar or Tenderiser in the draft (in terms of physique) but almost all of them sound small and wiry. Knuckles is the closest, but I feel like picking up someone who sounds very push / disruption heavy and avoiding bloodshed seems out of character.

That's why I'm going Layne. I'm going to hope, deep down, that a) it denies another team an amazing striker to punish us with and b) that a striker trained by Fillet's butchers is more striker by virtue of where they end up on the pitch, like Fillet herself, rather than by virtue of having super shot, etc.

It's a wild shot, but it's got more promise to me than any of the others.

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All it really takes is some mention of skill at arms rather than with the ball. Only 2 of the 9 so far seen have done that: Kami and Knuckles. Knuckle mentions defensive and tanky abilities (the opposite of what butchers do) and Kami, we're told, would not play for us. 

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Well, if I recall correctly, Harry was a contender for 10's, because he was just that: a midfield pitch controller of sorts. Pushes, KD's, defensive tech. Why would Knuckles not be a great replacement? Has the Butcher gameplan changed in the meantime?

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5 minutes ago, Nykolae said:

Well, if I recall correctly, Harry was a contender for 10's, because he was just that: a midfield pitch controller of sorts. Pushes, KD's, defensive tech. Why would Knuckles not be a great replacement? Has the Butcher gameplan changed in the meantime?

Roast

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5 hours ago, Nykolae said:

Point taken. 😅

I was being a little flippant, but Roast looks like he's going to be a serious contender for a spot in most butchers teams. TAC 6 with a KD on 2 and intimidation is going to knock down anyone, and then he's god momentous damage/push combo results throughout his playbook. And he's got a play that lets people charge for 1 less, and a pulse that puts out burning. The only downside of him is that we're probably not going to be able to give him the 6 INF you might want to give him each turn!

And on top of that there's (potentially) fixed vOx and Tenderiser to contemplate coming back into the team. I think we'll be sorted for midfield brawler control pieces, but, for me, think we could do with some more damage output. I don't have any interest in playing a model with dedicated footballing skills. I might score an opportunistic goal here or there, but I can't get my head around constructing a goal run - it almost always seems to go awry in some way - so a model has to make its place in my team because it can either get takeouts, or help others in the team get takeouts.

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Flippant, but not inaccurate. Roast, a hopefully fixed V.Ox and Tenderiser mean Butchers are actually set to do pretty alright when it comes to zone / fight control in S4.

48 minutes ago, malladin.ben said:

I might score an opportunistic goal here or there, but I can't get my head around constructing a goal run - it almost always seems to go awry in some way - so a model has to make its place in my team because it can either get takeouts, or help others in the team get takeouts.

Personally, I was exactly the same for a long while. Then I just started slamming Ox games for a year and a half solid till I could get my head around them. In all honesty though, all it takes is measuring 18" out from their goal to your choice of Brisket. If she can make it in, ace, pop 3 on her a go, if not, use that 3 elsewhere.

The reason I'd be hankering for a football model is because in all honesty, it's something we don't do well. If you want to run a pure damage team, it'd be SO hard for SFG to design someone who can edge out one of the models you always take in that kind of a team.

Ox, Princess, Boar, Boiler, Shank (Or V.Gutter, if she's your type), Meathook.

Boiler's always going to do supreme amounts of damage, admittedly with maximum set up.

Boar's always going to be super efficient compared to anyone else.

Meathook has Tooled up and Hooked. Even assuming she loses Hooked, she still has Smell Blood which makes her great for finishing off people Boiler doesn't quite kill.

Then Gutter and Shank both have a solid 2" melee and a spread of damage.

 

My big worry is people are going to vote for Kami and she'll end up with something like Maverick (which lets face it, it sounds like she will if she's with us) and then no-one will run her. Plus she's one of the only Rookies actively described as 'Mediocre'. And the last time we got someone average (stat wise) was Gutter. And a lot of people, not including myself, do not like how average Gutter can be.

Getting a strict footballer might not be cool or butcher-ish, but it'd at least free up a spot so more people could take V.Brisket for some super aggressive football.

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Story-wise, I could see the argument that Fillet would look to replace Brisket as a striker. But maybe not. There are plenty of reasons that she would pick up a more killy rookie. Maybe she wants a protégé she can trust to have her back in the long run. Or MAYBE she wants someone to replace the Beast. Or at least make Boar less relevant.

Game-wise, Brisket is still available in two forms and I feel that we don't really have the strongest take-out game on the table. I HOPE this changes in S4, but in the end we have to make decisions based upon what we know rather than what we hope.

Brisket is fine at scoring goals. Lets claim top DPS!

Side note: Rookies shouldn't be allowed to be coaches, but I'm sorely tempted to see how he would help us.

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3 hours ago, Priesmal said:

Story-wise, I could see the argument that Fillet would look to replace Brisket as a striker. But maybe not. There are plenty of reasons that she would pick up a more killy rookie. Maybe she wants a protégé she can trust to have her back in the long run. Or MAYBE she wants someone to replace the Beast. Or at least make Boar less relevant.

Game-wise, Brisket is still available in two forms and I feel that we don't really have the strongest take-out game on the table. I HOPE this changes in S4, but in the end we have to make decisions based upon what we know rather than what we hope.

Brisket is fine at scoring goals. Lets claim top DPS!

Side note: Rookies shouldn't be allowed to be coaches, but I'm sorely tempted to see how he would help us.

Also remember it's not just Fillet making this decision. The Butchers Longshank, the various nobles and others would probably look at the current roster and order her to pick someone who can play ball. Brisket, like her or not, was a crowd pleaser (in more ways than one, wink wink nudge nudge). And Layne's described as just as easy on the eyes for the fairer sex.

Fillet knows she can control Boar though. He's not smart enough to make a move while Fillet's in power. Shank? Yeah, she can't trust him and she knows it, but she also knows she could kill him in the ring if it came down to it.

As for Brisket - yep, she's super good at the game in either form, but from a gameplay perspective, only having 1 striker / goal threat means it's very hard for Butchers to threaten snap-back goals. And worse, it means if we end up in a match where we can't fight someone (either because they're more resilient than we can deal with or because they got the initiative and killed someone important, like Ox or Fillet (Which Devana can do on turn one. At range.)) we've got no back up plan.

The issue is none of these Rookies are described as "Good with a blade" or anything like that. That kind of stuff would get taught at the Butchers training camp, rather than the Rookie academy. Otherwise I'd have been totally with you on getting someone with murder potential. (And I know there's Knuckles but he's trying to run and hide from being a fighter)

In short: I think Layne's the best pick for being an alternative or supporting choice in a team running Brisket or failing that, Champ is best for being described as an aggressive all rounder.

#SmokedMeat

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After looking at them for a while i'd really like to see Nomad, or gaffer on the team to bring some cool effects to our game. But going with the popularity id probably say we should go Kami. I think we can have a chance at something great here. If we pull a ranged attack like Cinder with ball clear like salvo we could really control our non fight matchups even better. Plus she sounds cool. Lets get ox to roll up to her like does and bring her into the fold like he do. (Plus Honestly im not feeling the striker vibe for what we need.) 

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