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CrazyBlaine

Momentum for a missed goal

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Ok So the boys were going over things... as we do, and the argument against playing soccer (going for goals) was articulated by the following.

"If you miss your shot on goal, you not only don't get 4pnts but now you have spent a model's activation, usually 4+ influence, you have a model out of position (usually), you've given up possession of the ball (potentially), AND you've spent usually 2 momentum."

So as you can see the absolute PAIN that you feel when you miss a goal is very real and often hard to come back from. So we got thinking. How can you mitigate this pain? What could you do to make missing a goal less devastating?

So I figure the best answer is to refund the momentum spent to kick the goal.

Change it so that you get back a momentum for shooting on goal whether you score or not.

It's even thematic, since the crowd always cheers for shots on goal!

 

Also, Please, please, please try and sneak it into season 4. Don't wait 2 @!&$!ing years like you did when I asked for a momentum for the kickoff kick ;> Trust me on this one. It's common sense, you don't need to playtest it. It's a needed and helpful change ;>

 

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23 hours ago, Gauntlet said:

Sounds good to me.

If I miss the KD on my charge attack and get counterattack disengaged, do I get my influence refunded, too?

You know that’s not a bad idea .... we’ll refunding influence is obviously a no go but having a mitigating factor wouldn’t be unwelcome 

how about a universal character play that anyone can do 

Ready Position- Any character can spend Two influence to remove the knocked down condition and make a 1” jog

so obviously a low power character play but it’s purpose would be in the event that you were countered and left with unusable influence you could reposition 

I am very in favour of getting rid of the feelbads without creating an unbalance 

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I don't think it would help to be honest. The point I was making is that attacks are also vulnerable to variance in a similar way.

- A three die shot on goal without Tap In scores 88% of the time.

- Tap In increases that to 96%. Bonus time to 94%. Both, 99%.

That means if you're playing a 3-0 team, over the course of a five round event, if you're bonus timing tap ins you still will most likely not miss a shot.

If you're just making shots with no bonuses, you'll probably miss one or two over the course of the event. This can be a problem, sure.

But if you're in a scenario where missing a goal is a major problem, 1) you should probably be bonus timing anyway, and 2) a momentum refund probably doesn't help in the slightest anyway. Your player is still stranded, the ball is still in a bad place. It really doesn't do much.

Managing the risks of failing rolls is an important skill, and knowing when to bonus time / when you need to take the risky shot / when to risk the parting blow etc is an important part of the game. When I make a two die shot on goal or take a parting blow, I'm aware of the risks of missing, and if it's a risky play and I'm still taking it, that probably means my opponent is playing well and putting pressure on me, and they should be rewarded for that.

Refunding momentum for missed goals also means you can take as many shots from 1" as you have influence at no cost, which doesn't sound like a good thing for the game.

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ALWAYS Bonus Time a shot on goal - if you have the momentum, it's not really an option, it's an essential.

@Gauntlet is exactly right. The odds of scoring are pretty high (even with just 2 dice from max distance it's still 75%), and you should be playing to maximise the chances of success (Bonus Time, Tap In, striker with high kick stats) and minimising the negatives of failure (last activation of a turn, player able to retrieve their missed shot with a move, being within 1" of the goal, INF for Acrobatics/Where He Go, striker in cover or safe distance from reprisals, back up player to retrieve the ball - to be honest, if you're going for a 3-0 game, you should have about half your team capable of retrieving the ball with dodges, 2" melee and low tackles).

4 hours ago, Gauntlet said:

Refunding momentum for missed goals also means you can take as many shots from 1" as you have influence at no cost, which doesn't sound like a good thing for the game.

That alone is a reason not to refund.

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Are we really saying that shots on goal have 88%+ chance of scoring and then in the same breath saying that being able to keep shooting as long as you have influence would be too much? Like do you hear yourself?

EVERY GAME there are shots on goal. And going for a shot usually leaves your player out of position. Usually leaves you with zero momentum because you bonus timed it, or didn't because you couldn't afford to. Because momentum is a valuable resource. Like I'm not talking hypothetically here.

And Correct. The odds are very high for shots. When people score (as expected) things are fine and everyone has a good game. But when someone rolls a critical miss on a d20... rolls that 6% chance miss on 4 dice.... like it's not really fair. It ruins the game, especially in a serious game. Now does this need to be part of the game. YES. But can we mitigate it slightly? I think so. I think that getting your momentum back is something that without overstepping that will make that missed goal more bearable.

You could also have a dodge after a missed goal but I think that would be too much. I'm just saying that there should be some small mitigating factor to make missed shots on goal more bearable and I think that getting a momentum is the best answer.

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54 minutes ago, CrazyBlaine said:

Are we really saying that shots on goal have 88%+ chance of scoring and then in the same breath saying that being able to keep shooting as long as you have influence would be too much? Like do you hear yourself?

EVERY GAME there are shots on goal. And going for a shot usually leaves your player out of position. Usually leaves you with zero momentum because you bonus timed it, or didn't because you couldn't afford to. Because momentum is a valuable resource. Like I'm not talking hypothetically here.

And Correct. The odds are very high for shots. When people score (as expected) things are fine and everyone has a good game. But when someone rolls a critical miss on a d20... rolls that 6% chance miss on 4 dice.... like it's not really fair. It ruins the game, especially in a serious game. Now does this need to be part of the game. YES. But can we mitigate it slightly? I think so. I think that getting your momentum back is something that without overstepping that will make that missed goal more bearable.

You could also have a dodge after a missed goal but I think that would be too much. I'm just saying that there should be some small mitigating factor to make missed shots on goal more bearable and I think that getting a momentum is the best answer.

I don't understand how the odds of scoring and the ability to retry are interlinked? The ability to retry within 1" primarily makes models that are bad at football but mobile  (most commonly Obulus, in my experience) able to score more reliably. Not being able to score reliably without a lot of resource investment (more MP) is an important downside of Obulus, and removing that downside doesn't make the game any better in my opinion.

Shots are already reliable. If you had 4% odds of missing, you're taking a 4 die shot without tap in. You shouldn't get compensated by the game for making the mistake of not taking the Tap In - not taking the Tap In should have penalties - if your opponent made it impossible for you to reach Tap In range, they should be rewarded for that.

Basically if you have done everything you can to maximise your odds, you're taking a 4 die tap in which is unlikely enough to miss that you don't need to worry about it, at 99%+. If you haven't done everything you can to maximise your odds, you have no excuse to complain if things go badly.

 

If anything, I would prefer something like this as a rule:

If the number of dice in your dice pool is greater than the TN of the roll, you may choose to decline to roll dice and instead get exactly one hit. So you can choose to auto-succeed a four die 3+ shot (but no chance of screamer), but nothing less reliable than that. So the 99% rolls go to 100%, but if you didn't commit the resources to maximise your odds you have to deal with the risk of failure (which I think is perfectly reasonable).

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Supper sad

well I suppose I can wait two years AGAIN ;)

 

but it honestly so many positive changes in season 4 I’m not even worried keep up the good work !

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If you always do something, you're wrong.

Bonus timing a 4 dice shot increase the odds by 3%. If I have 10 momentum more then my opponent, sure, I would always do it. But if I have 2 momentum, I prefer being able to counterattack if I miss than having a very little more chance to succeed. If I have 2 more than my opponent,I prefer to keep a better chance to go first and retry that shot if I miss than having 3% chance more to succeed.

 

I always felt that when shark come and score, he did not need that free dodge or free momentum. He just scored. He can die. For instance I once missed a tap in 6 dice shot. I could difficulty have made the odds better except by playing Angel and corsair (never missed a 8 dice shot, that' s true). I would happily had given up more momentum for the success for having that momentum or dodge on the fail. Or that autosuccess shot.

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I think given how easy go runs can be, sometimes literally sprint, roll 2-4 dice and get 4 VPS the drawbacks for missing the goal should be very big. If you compare how much investment in influence, activaitons, preparation and dice rolled for killing a player to goal scoring there needs to be that risk / reward factor there.

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Yeah, sure. Vcinder charging something is so much investment. Some goal run are easy. Some kill are easy. Failing a kill is more rarely awfull since usually the work is now partly done. Failling a goal run often mean you just start from 0.

 

A Goal is victory point, giving up the ball possession and helping hte other team to score and one influence in the next turn. A kill is influence lost for the opponent, and playing a player down for the next turn, sometimes the next two (three for a good casket time at the strat of one turn), momentum, and half the work done to do it again.

I'm quite sure the risk is bigger with a goal run, and I'm not sure the reward is bigger. Having a littler reward in exchange of a littler risk ... maybe would not be so bad. But I'm ok as it is, and maybe those dice screwinf you up is also part of the fun (My first tournament game, which I won, I had to go for every single goal shot twice. It was a 2-2, but I technically did 5 goal run, each of them ending with a goal shot. It was fun. Would it had been fun if it was a lose. I like to think so, but not sure) 🙂🙂

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Simple risk/reward. The reward for scoring a goal is huge (4 VPs, 1 mom, 1 inf) so the commensurate risk must be high. Shouldn't soften that.

Or as Dr Evil might say - 'we don't reward failure'.

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Except that failure at killing someone is rewarded. ^^

 

And the reward is often enormous. One activation less, a handfull of influence less, a lot of momentum +1 2 vp.

 

I just sometimes feel like killing is so much easier that Goal scoring is almost discouraged in a  ball game. I always found Corsair 0-6 easier to do than Shark 3-0, even if Corsair is and never was the best killer and Shark is at least one of the best striker. But the second is more fun so I will probably continue with it.

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