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dr3wbaby

Minor Guild Season 4 Woes

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As someone who likes tight clean competitive play AND playing minor guilds, It annoys me that taking a minor guild in a S4 tournament is now a huge disadvantage. I LOVE the Ratcatchers probably my most played guild and I'll be buying Navigators and Cooks. That said WHY is it that they will be down FOUR MODELS IN A LINEUP. I really like the design of minor guilds the more specific Guild themes really vibe with me.  

 

With that said is there a possibility that minor guilds can get a buff for a 12 man roster or can you give them 1 or 2 more models from the parent guild because if a Major guild has 4 more options the minor guilds will be at a huge disadvantage.

With that said I do think that giving minors more models is a bit time consuming and makes the consumer buy potentially both boxes of the original guild. (But if you ask me that's GREAT for Steamforged) 

I love Steamforged and will keep playing reguardless but i would like to see an adjustment for minor guild competitive play.

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Minor guilds currently get a bonus to compensate for their reduced roster size, and I imagine that will be continued/improved into season 4.

I wouldn’t worry about it too much at the moment - more details will come over the coming weeks/months, and hopefully the things put in place to support the minor guilds will be to your liking. After all, SFG don’t benefit if minor guilds aren’t competitive at tournament! :)

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What bonus do they currently get?

I hope my original post didn't sound doom and gloomy just wanted to point out upping the roster size is a burden. 

I also think there are super minor changes that make them a little bit better not insane in competitive. 

 

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4 minutes ago, dr3wbaby said:

What bonus do they currently get?

 

They get +1 to the starting roll and an additional Gameplan card.

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If I remember right it’s a +1 to the roll for choosing kick/receive, and one extra gameplan card. 

Not too doom and gloom at all, I just wanted to offer a bit of reassurance that the minor guilds will stay competitive. Season changes are kind of frustrating because you get all these rules in isolated bits, without the other stuff that makes them make sense (like the Navigators awful TAC and KICK stats because of their rerolling  :)

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When you've been playing wrong *FACEPALM*.

I think with that they are in a good spot with that cant wait to get +1 on starting rolls 

 

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42 minutes ago, dr3wbaby said:

When you've been playing wrong *FACEPALM*.

I think with that they are in a good spot with that cant wait to get +1 on starting rolls 

 

Soooo... we're good then?

*edit* The Order will get that too... let that sink in.

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With a roster of 12 players, minor Guild could pick their 6, plus 6 from the major Guild, including 1 captain and 1 mascot.

what do you think about that?

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22 minutes ago, Turbopups said:

With a roster of 12 players, minor Guild could pick their 6, plus 6 from the major Guild, including 1 captain and 1 mascot.

what do you think about that?

I'm sure a lot of rebalancing would be needed if you could combine a whole lineup from a major guild with a minor guild. Also that kind of ruins the point of minor guild. They are MINOR so I'm fine they are more niche, have less choices and get a bonus (and a guild rule from now on it seems). :) 

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1 hour ago, Turbopups said:

With a roster of 12 players, minor Guild could pick their 6, plus 6 from the major Guild, including 1 captain and 1 mascot.

what do you think about that?

No. Minor guilds are balanced and designed around 8. Once they get larger they are no longer a minor guild and currently there is no minor guild that is planned to become a major guild. It could of course happen eventually but there is still lots of stuff to come out till then. 

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1 hour ago, Turbopups said:

With a roster of 12 players, minor Guild could pick their 6, plus 6 from the major Guild, including 1 captain and 1 mascot.

what do you think about that?

I wouldn't hate it if there were still only two players that could play for either captain, meaning that you could for example bring Ratcatchers and Morticians, but only Bonesaw and VetGraves were eligible for both guilds.

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You got me wrong.

I ment, that you could only play Minor or Major, but with the roster of 12, you can decide, wich Guild you want to play.

The 6 Players you choose must be legal for the chosen guild, of course.

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I think once most/all major guild have their minor counterparts we will see a change to roster sizes/style. I don't think minors will be stuck in this place forever.  

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4 hours ago, Ruffy said:

I wouldn't hate it if there were still only two players that could play for either captain, meaning that you could for example bring Ratcatchers and Morticians, but only Bonesaw and VetGraves were eligible for both guilds.

Why would that be the case? You could bring the Rats box, and Pelage and Skulk could play for both. The Morts 6 could include vGraves. That doesn't sound too bad, actually.

*edit* Sorry, I misread your comment. You said you WOULDN'T hate it. I think, though, he's advocating for 2 captain/mascots, one pair from the major guild, one pair from the minor guild, and then enough models to make a legal fieldable 6 for each captain/mascot pair.

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17 hours ago, landstander said:

Why would that be the case? You could bring the Rats box, and Pelage and Skulk could play for both. The Morts 6 could include vGraves. That doesn't sound too bad, actually.

*edit* Sorry, I misread your comment. You said you WOULDN'T hate it. I think, though, he's advocating for 2 captain/mascots, one pair from the major guild, one pair from the minor guild, and then enough models to make a legal fieldable 6 for each captain/mascot pair.

Yes, that‘s, what I ment.

in Case of Spooks and Rats, you could bring the rat‘s six and for example Obulus, Dirge, VGraves, Bonesaw and two other Morticians. When drafting, you choose one captain and mascot from one of the two guilds and then you start drafting a legal team.

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On 7/27/2018 at 11:13 AM, Turbopups said:

With a roster of 12 players, minor Guild could pick their 6, plus 6 from the major Guild, including 1 captain and 1 mascot.

what do you think about that?

Honestly I think this should be the way the new 12 player rosters work, if you want to run a full major guild list then you can, however you could choose a Major captain / mascot and also the Minor guild captain / mascot along with eight other "squaddies".. You wouldn't even need to take all four cross over players as long as both captains have four field able players under their command..

Sticking with the Morts example you could take a roster of Obulus, Piper, Dirge, Squeak, Cosset, vHemlocke, oGraves, vGraves, Pelage, Skulk, Miasma, Scourge.

It's certainly more restrictive than a full major guild lineup but allows people to try stuff a little off the wall and opens up a discussion for roster selection rather than the currently proposed "bring everything you have" approach, and if people just want to run an 8 player Minor roster then they could do so and still get the bonus card and +1 to the kick roll (Although I still don't think either of these is a huge advantage)

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STW discuss this in their latest podcast. I hate it. The problem is you dilute the minor guild flavour by making them 'some other guys' in a major list. Also it creates weird balance issues not on the pitch but in strategic balance. Guilds are balanced around having good/bad matchups. Being able to flex between 2 guilds would bust this (imagine if you could take 2 major guilds in your roster). Worse it puts pressure on the 2nd captain in major - you instead take the minor captain. 

Its worse for competitive play as now players need even more models to make a full roster whereas now they need 6 and get a small bonus.

I see why people like this and maybe, maybe it could be made to work. But I think it's bad and I hope it doesn't go this way. 

Minors are nice as their own thing. Keep them as their own identity. 

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2 hours ago, EpicChris said:

Minors are nice as their own thing. Keep them as their own identity. 

I totally agree with this, but the idea of joining Major and Minor Guild roster together into one 12-man roster would be a fun idea for an alternative style of tournament, like Cage Ball, Captain Oh Captain, Homelands, etc.

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Minor Guilds are minor guilds. Keep them MINOR. If you don't want a 'disadvantage' like that, take a major guild. If you want a challenge, take a minor. When you actually play the game, it's still 6v6.

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Realistically I'd prefer if they made the new rookies cross faction between the major and minor guilds then made competitive play rosters 9 players, one captain, one mascot and just cut out the minor guild bonuses all together..

Unfortunately it does not appear that enforcing a single captain/mascot roster will ever be a thing but I think the "bring everything" approach does very little to inspire the strategic impact of squad selection..

While I would be happy for "merged" lists to be trialed as an alternate format, I think it would just allow players further flexibility and don't believe this would dilute minor guilds at all..

As mentioned in my previous post, I'm not saying players couldn't just take the 8 man minor roster and receive the boost for this, it would just open a third option for those that really want to tweak with their roster choices...

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I see the argument of bring everything is not strategic and honestly i don't get it. You have to pick 6 models - how is that not strategic? Arbitrarily  limiting your squad for no reason doesn't add strategic depth - it reduces it (less permutations). 

I agree minors are in a weird place - but that was always going to be the case. I think the choice you make as a minor guild is to accept that you are at a squad depth disadvantage and roll with it.

I see people sometimes say they should be able to take 8 major players only with 1 captain and get the benefit- staggeringly missing the fact they can choose those 8 from 15 players. 

I feel there is a misconception Minors need 'fixing' for competitive play - this appears to be based on erroneous assumptions (They are weak and can't win) and limited data (only 1 minor is currently legal).

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3 hours ago, EpicChris said:

I see the argument of bring everything is not strategic and honestly i don't get it. You have to pick 6 models - how is that not strategic? Arbitrarily  limiting your squad for no reason doesn't add strategic depth - it reduces it (less permutations). 

With the ability to take (almost) every available guild player into a tournament you will have access to the potentially "best" option for every match up.. While this is probably a good thing it means you don't have to worry about which players make "the cut" and in my opinion this takes a lot of the strategy out of squad selection..

Obviously it will still come down to the pre game draft and you can potentially still throw or receive some curved balls with the final twelve models on the table but I still think it will deduce the amount of discussion about team lists and roster selection.

3 hours ago, EpicChris said:

I see people sometimes say they should be able to take 8 major players only with 1 captain and get the benefit- staggeringly missing the fact they can choose those 8 from 15 players. 

I will agree that Major guilds should not be able to just take eight players to gain the benefits of the Minor guilds, the ability to choose your best eight out of a larger pool is a much larger advantage than some people give credit for, however at the same time, having four more players to choose from per match is also a much larger advantage than just having two additional options from a pool of fifteen.

4 hours ago, EpicChris said:

I feel there is a misconception Minors need 'fixing' for competitive play - this appears to be based on erroneous assumptions (They are weak and can't win) and limited data (only 1 minor is currently legal).

I don't think Minor guilds require "fixing" as such, I have seen a lot of good players get a lot of work out of the Rats.. At the same time I just don't think the bonuses they were given to make up for their limited roster was the correct decisions for the game competitively.. +1 to the kickoff roll is good but doesn't seem to come up as often as people would lead you to believe and the additional card either never gets used or could potentially be a negative in longer drawn out games where the Major guild player will refresh his hand first and therefore have access to better cards sooner..

At the end of the day I don't think any situation is going to be particularly game breaking and I am looking forward to see the full list of changes to the OPD and the players themselves in S4...

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