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malladin.ben

Why I don't like veteran gutter

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On first reveal I was in the uninteresting but decent camp, but having played her quite a lot now I don't like her. I thought I'd post my reasons why and people who disagree can explain to me what I'm doing wrong to change my mind.

In my experience she so often whiffs. With no set up she hits 1dmg far too often, and she needs far too much set up to reliably hit her 3dmg. She has one trick: grapple hook, which is either an expensive crap-shoot at extending her range or a really difficult to set up counter attack disengagement, which likely leaves her on her arse.

She was billed as a simple damage dealer, but the truth is she is neither.

When we're talking about damage dealing models they tend to fall into 2 categories: ones that need heavy set up and ones that go in early with limited set up and don't benefit as much from the set up. We have a goodly number of the former (boiler, either brisket, tenderiser even) and know well the tricks that we need to do to set these up. But all our easy set up models come with serious limitations: boar can be easily sat on to limit his output, shank has only 3 INF to spend, and fillet has a 1" melee so can be easily counter attacked. What we have been crying out for in S3 is someone who can do that sort of simple damage-dealing activation, and gutter was sold to us as this model (thats what the 2" reach is for, right?), but she just isn't.

Lets do a quick comparison between gutter and Shank (A model few butchers players, even his supporters like me, would say is quite at par)...

Threat ranges: these overlap significantly: gutter is +1" on a jog, but Shank +1" on 1inf spend (and that includes a 4" dodge for mobility). They charge the same distance. Gutter threars 16" total vs an unhurt target, whereas shank is only 14", but he gets up to 16" if they are hurt. If you're doing this extreme range fishing they both only get to make one attack, but shank's can be a charge, whereas gutter's has to be a basic attack. Shank's is also guaranteed range, whereas gutter's relies on a 2 dice character play. I've had that roll whiff in critical moments, and bonus timing it sort of defeats the purpose if wer6e saying she's this simple, low setup required, damage dealer.

Damage output: damage output is the big problem for me. If we say grapple hook should be saved for counter attacks, then you're really looking to operate her inside a scrum. Without set up she hits her 2 dmg result 50% of the time vs DEF 4, so she's getting a total of 6dmg in a typical turn. Against this same target shank hits his 2 damage 66% of the time, so does 5 damage from his 3 INF. This goes to 10 vs 8 if you've got a single damage buff (e.g. ox) in the mix. But if you're operating in the scrum you're likely adding a gang up bonus, right? In this situation gutter hits her 2dmg result pretty reliably, on paper at least, so will do 8 damage, or 12 with a buff. However, shank is probably going to spike one result to 3dmg, so again is only 1 damage behind gutter (2 with a buff). If you then start taking into account the possibility of crowd out penalties, shank's dodges give him the edge, as he can more easily find a position where he can avoid the crowd outs.

The dodges are also better at enabling him to access aura buffs, too, as he can often dodge in after one hit, whereas gutter is static. If the start point either of them can get to is outside Ox's aura, shank can often get to the aura after 1 orc2 attacks whilst gutter cannot. This enables shabk to catch up on the average damage output.

Basically, vet Gutter is just a less influence-efficient version of Shank in the scrum and a less reliable long range hunter.

Okay, maybe I'm wrong in expecting her to be this alpha strike model. Maybe she's supposed to require set up. In that case you need to compete her to boiler. With the same TAC and similar play books you're looking at the same sort of player, right? The trouble here is that boiler has assist, which, if were talking about getting all the set up right has to come into the equation. Access to a TAC and damage buff is big. His >< is also much better a correction tool than anything gutter has. The only advantages gutter has are momentous 1 damage and 2" reach. Both of which are largely irrelevant when you're talking about a model that wants lots of set up. Boiler (and other high set up models like tenderiser or the briskets) have the added bonus that when you're not able to gwtvthecsey up for them they do something that helps the team.

But it may just be that I am playing her wrong, and await advice on how to get the most out of her.

If i were to suggest fixes to her, just dropping her 2 damage result to column 2 would probably be all it needs, maybe 3 dmg on col 4. Some sort of support ability wouldn't go amiss either.

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So many points...

1. She like vDec is for S4. Butchers will be different in S4 I expect.

2. YOU CANNOT HAVE EASY DAMAGE DEALING! Ox means you just can't. If you want her to kill the world, put her in Ox's aura wreck face. Or put Tooled Up on her as she can siphon 4 INF through it.

3. Her virtues to Butchers are not another killer model. She is a tech piece with Butcher overlay. She can kill the world with the right setup (Anatomical and MOM DMG with a Guild with plenty of DMG buffs) but you don't take her for that - you take her for Grapple and 2". Grapple lets you hunt down models and engage them, threatening their take out, or use it for janky counters or use it for threat extension or use it for 1st turn momentum generation. 2" is self-expanatory - she hits things can't be countered by 1" or can engage the world if you want some crowd outs.

She is fine as she is. She's not vDecimate but she offers you another in-theme tech piece - which is what she is. You have your front line brawlers, you don't need another. What Butchers need (and you and others have moaned about) is tech-jank. Which is what she is.

But never despair because Butchers are about to get 2 models that automatically have -1 DEF attacks - this may under Ox literally end the world...(it's hard to feel how this is balanced). I'm sure they will appease your hunger for another face-wrecking model.

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1. Probably a good point for the long run.

2. I think my point here is more about how she was "sold" to us on release as a "simple damage dealer" she isn't either. That said, other teams do have models that can threaten massive damage with very little set up, why can't butchers, especially given they are supposed to be the ultimate takeout team. And being in Ox's aura is not the simple thing you make it out to be. It requires a certain amount of set up to get it right, and makes him a massive target for someone so paper-thin and easily controlled.

3. Shank does this job better.

I think you're interpreting this post in the wrong way, Chris. I think you're too much referencing previous debates. I just dont get whatever role is. I make comparisons to other models that do what I can see you might do with gutter, but do it better.

I'm not particularly "hungry for another model that wrecks face" (although I don't think it would unbalance things if we did, and maybe there'll be a cook that does that job). I like a balanced team that has different tools for different jobs, I just cant see what job she is the tool for, just a poorer version of tools we already have.

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My point boils down to: She's a tech-piece - all Butcher players have said they wanted a tech piece. Taa daaa. Also Shank doesn't do her job better - Shank does a different job (partly why he has 2/3). You can obviously not like her. But she has a role. 

She wasn't sold as a solid damage dealer. If you read the blog it makes it clear she does consistent momentous damage not lots of it. They wanted an archetypal Butcher not a powerful DPS model.

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I don't recall any butchers players saying they wanted a "tech piece" I certainly didn't. I don't even really think I know what one is. The way you describe how she should be used is exactly how I use shank, only shank does it by taking only 1 INF from the rest of the team rather than 2.

There is almost certainly a misunderstanding of how to use her on my part, and that's why I'm making this provocative post to try and eek out what she's supposed to do.

You may be right about her being sold as a consistent damage dealer, but that's not something there's a shortage of in butchers. I just dont understand where she fits into the team. I understand meathook, boiler, ox, fillet, both briskets in their different roles, vet Ox, even tenderiser I understand what he brings to the team (if I realise I don't have the discipline to get him to work), but I just dont understand where vet gutter fits or what to do with her.

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I think you answered your own question. You complained that Butchers could get countered and stopped from spending their INF. You complained that you had no easy setup models that just worked. vGutter just works and is hard to stop, and brings another KD and has a great counter attack with Resolute. Is her damage bananas, no. But that's not her fault - she can do bananas damage or she can generate you 1-4 momentum super reliably - is that not worth it?

Again, I agree she's not setting the world on fire and maybe she should have had crucial artery. But she is solid, dependable and gets the job done, even more so with setup. I think the point is that she is supposed to go late, under Ox Aura (blah blah hard to setup whatever) and do 12 reliable damage that can't be countered and dodged away from. She is in a word: reliable. Grapple gives her a kooky counter attack and threat extension.

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Sp "tech piece" just means a 2" melee zone?

Anyway, so we're back to my initial thoughts that she's supposed to be someone who can deal some easy momentous damage without much counter play. My argument is that she doesn't do enough damage to make you pick her over someone else. If she did 12 reliable damage under Ox's aura/tooled up I'd be happy. The trouble is she doesn't, in my experience.

Perhaps my trouble is that, as you day, she needs to operate late in the turn, so I'll try that and see if it helps.

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I'm gonna have to agree with op. I feel she's not unplayable but to call her a tech piece is being very generous. She brings 2 things 1. Mom 1 on  1 and 2. 2 inch reach, grappling hook is a pretty bad character play though rowdy is still worse. Her pb isn't that great either.

She works super well with ox and pretty much replaces boiler as she needs less set up. Honestly she beats out shank because of anatomical and 1 extra influence, though I feel like shank is better in a fillet list than gutter. 

Compared to the loyalist and other exiles she's just not that fun, like she meets the minimum to be competitive but ends there.

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My experiences:

Fan favorite has been great. Starting a turn with killing a low hp model sets you way ahead in the momentum run for the turn. Spikes to wraps are 2 momentum results as well.

Resolute/chain grab has both come into play a couple of times. Not the best rules, but better than nothing. Don't think they are supposed to be the stars of the show anyway.

Starting a turn hitting a model within ox aura has been great. Especially against annoying counterattack 1" models that ox hates. Her kd threatens a parting blow keeping them stuck sometimes. 

A great model for tooled up. 4 inf and 2" with all damage being reliable and momentous.

Another decent kick model have been nice when receiving.

Her wraps are absolutely amazing and are both easier and more reliable than other butchers. (2" and AP, sometimes they aint tough or legendary helps) this in turn makes her synergizing very well with the +Tac gameplan cards. 

She have not been amazing with fillet. But not particurlarly bad either. Mostly because that line up is filled with inf hungry models and are less likely to scrum up.

In summary there are a lot of good butcher models you can play. So play what works for you. But she has felt very rewarding to use for me with Ox. 

Could she use a little bonus in comparison to the other exiles? Yeah probably. But that is a fruitless line of thinking. I would give her a high >> to maybe make that resolut feel a bit more rewarding perhaps. 

If people think she is boring to use, then I can't really argue with that. Each to their own. But I enjoy her. 

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High risk, high reward... and she is NOT High Risk... you risk little bringing her along in an Ox line up. Bland but reliable is how I would describe her. As has been said here by better players...activated later she'll do some work. I think we all wanted to LOVE her... but I think she's been 'friend-zoned'... and that's cool too.

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Do I hear some buyer's remorse? 🤭

So now that you can compare the vGutter to the vSakana replacement, what do you think? Fish could still use some good, solid mom damage, although she might NOT have retained that feature if she got all Fishified.

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I feel like the loyalists kind of cheapened the whole fight for this new character and probably wouldn't have cared to win if I knew they were coming as well. We might've gotten something more useful than a bland model who feels like the worst of the Exiles. I was super hyped about fighting for her but man does she not feel very satisfying to use.

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From what I remember hearing last steamcon vet tenderizer was one of the models that were being voted on for design a model but he lost out to spirit bear

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So ran vGutter in a non Ox lineup yesterday. I think she would seem less meh if her playbook was only four long. Drop the mom 2 down to column two (keep the push on column two) and slide everything down one, possibly make her GB momentous as well. I would be happy with that. Icing on the cake would be to give her butcher tac of 6.

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On 7/26/2018 at 9:07 AM, Acidic Cleaver said:

a bland model who feels like the worst of the Exiles

Have you seen vHonour?

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