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malladin.ben

Let's start taking tactics

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@EpicChris you have nothing to apologize for - I was being slightly tongue-in-cheek, as well as just making a general observation that applies to, well... almost everything. (At first, you can't even decipher the Matrix. Then, you begin to be able to read it, and eventually you don't even see the code, just blonde, brunette. But it takes the One to truly manipulate it like a master.) Anyway... one of the most frustrating games in my Guild Ball life last night has left me with a question: I'm still a bit unclear about the status of Heroic and Legendary plays as they relate to a Character Play. Are these Character Plays? If the Legendary is a CP, would a Harrier increase the damage dealt?

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5 minutes ago, landstander said:

@EpicChris you have nothing to apologize for - I was being slightly tongue-in-cheek, as well as just making a general observation that applies to, well... almost everything. (At first, you can't even decipher the Matrix. Then, you begin to be able to read it, and eventually you don't even see the code, just blonde, brunette. But it takes the One to truly manipulate it like a master.) Anyway... one of the most frustrating games in my Guild Ball life last night has left me with a question: I'm still a bit unclear about the status of Heroic and Legendary plays as they relate to a Character Play. Are these Character Plays? If the Legendary is a CP, would a Harrier increase the damage dealt?

Heroic and Legendary are Plays but not Character Plays. As such Tough Hide works against them but they do not benefit from Harriers. They can also be used when Knocked Down.

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I feel like Falconers are at the strongest if they can abuse a slight increase in average dice rolls. A lot of the results you want are already within reach, but things that just nudge probabilities into your favor seem really strong. So I really like Grudge Match and +1 tac on a squaddie, even though singled out can get real dicey when put on one of your players. This is also why I feel like Devanas legendary play is so important. Using it to get just a kill is rarely worth it, but ending a turn by snaring a bunch of targets really boosts your next turn massively! Most targets with -1 def will be good targets for almost any of our players: Minerva is pretty solid on her own, but snared gives you more safety in hitting the results you need. Mataagi can more easily hit the mom harrier (or a tackle!), Rundaas will start hitting those delicious upper results, and so on. And while I know that this isn´t rocket science and people already do this, I think its easy to lose sight of these small bonuses in the heat of battle. The 3 damage is great, but guaranteed snared is really good. Also, counter attack to put out harriers or other character plays! Any influence saved is influence gained, and all of our players really want that one extra attack. Sure, Rundaas might not knock you down on a counter, but he will put up a harrier or dirty knives. Then when it´s his turn, he can go straight into the juicy results! Same with Minerva: If you don´t actually need 3 attacks to do KD, Eye Spy and Harrier, thats great news! Even choosing these results ahead of the "better choices" can be worth it. If Minerva has the chance to knock someone down on the counter attack, but they have a momentum, ask your self this: Would I rather he waste that momentum to stand up and continue as usual, or do I want him to end the turn in a harrier or eye spyed, which he can´t clear?

I am enjoying Falconers very much at the moment, and with WTC behind us, we´re hopefully gonna be able to get some more games in with them! :)

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Thanks for this sharing :)

I'm enjoying playing with them as my first guild, and all feedbacks help me. 

This question is awesome :  "Would I rather he waste that momentum to stand up and continue as usual, or do I want him to end the turn in a harrier or eye spyed, which he can´t clear?" Never thinking like that.. Thanks a lot. I want to improve myself a lot with them :)

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After a bunch of games and taking a look at how games are won and lost, here are my thoughts on the team:

- Everything runs through Devana.  She is a super solo that needs set up.  The more set ups the better - she is very greedy, so you need to feed her.  She should always go last, unless it is to set up the winning goal.

-  The secret of Rundaas is Dirty Knives.  When I attack with Rundaas, I am now always leading with Dirty Knives followed by a Harrier.  Dirty Knives is great to knock out a target with 1 health left.  I was watching a Falconer's match report today and the Falconers player was trying to kill a 1 health model with Minerva.  I think the play is have Rundaas attack a near by model and then kill the other model with Dirty Knives and save the Minerva activation. 

-  I think the base line up of Rundaas, Minerva, Mataagi and vHearne is the primary line up for S3.  This line up gives you 3 Harriers, 2 models with 2" melee, and Last Light, and provides the most synergic boost to Devana.  Last Light on Devana is amazing, given that her character plays just cost 1 INF.

-  Current S3 Egret does not provide synergy for Devana, which goes to my first point.  Everything needs to run through Devana.  If she is on the field, you are either giving up a Harrier or Last Light.

-  My ideal game is 4 TOs & 1 goal.  Work on getting on getting the ball, force the other team to over commit, get the 4 TOs, then score the goal for the win.

-  if in doubt, pay for the Harrier.  The team gets a lot more work done with Harriers on the field. 

-  Do not over commit Devana.  If Devana is not on the pitch, the team performance really goes downhill.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Riino said:

This question is awesome :  "Would I rather he waste that momentum to stand up and continue as usual, or do I want him to end the turn in a harrier or eye spyed, which he can´t clear?" Never thinking like that.. Thanks a lot. I want to improve myself a lot with them :)

If in doubt, Harrier followed by Eye Spy. KD is great on the counter after Harrier and Eye Spy are already out.

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Question for you all: In turn one when receiving, do you allocate influence to lay out 3 harriers, or do you prioritize having influence left for passing the ball around? I´ve been thinking about going for a more ball oriented approach to "guarantee" momentum and/or some janky moves, but it´s so hard to tell whether 3 harriers will be overkill or perfect when allocating. Doing 5 - 2 - 2 - 2 - 2 - 0 (Devana, 3 harriers and a sprint + pass to retrieve the ball) or something like that makes influence so tight, so you never feel like you can afford to play ball! Any musings? So far I´m in camp "2 harriers are enough for turn one, play the ball more". This is all predicated on the fact that they don´t have Grace, Banisher of Birds. She changes things! :D

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I plan for at least 2 Harriers on turn 1.  The decision to play ball or go for 3 Harriers depends on what their ball retrieval looks like and if they can get into my lines on turn 1.  For example, if I am playing against Shark/Fish (or similar team), I am planning on 3 Harriers because I know they are going to come after the ball and I want to take out whoever they send to get the ball.  My main strategy on turn 1 is to get the ball in a safe place and then start focusing in on taking out anyone that my opponent over commits on.

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I've been playing the Falconer's mainly since I started painting them up. My impressions so far is that they are unimpressive. I am struggling to figure out how to make them "flow" better. I'm not here to be negative, I would really like to discuss in depth strats to make this team not feel like a self inflicted handicap.

 

My main issue with the Falconer's is how it feels like you're always setting up Denava for a big turn. While she can certainly deal impressive damage, using my models as a one model set up is not a viable strategy. I think individually every model is great in their role, but something cohesive is missing when I play them, and if I were to pick out one thing it feels like their damage output is strung up with Denava. Rundaas is a great model, but he'll chip damage and set-up other models. Same with Minerva. And maybe it wouldn't  be that bad if the Falconer's didn't die to a stiff breeze. Rundaas is the tankiest model on the base team, but he is about as tanky as a Blacksmith apprentence. In the games I've played Falconer's I have won pnce against a Mason's player who over committed Brick, who I one turned with Denava. 

 

Up to now I've been playing the base team. Again, individually I think they all have their merits. New Vet Hearne looks good, but unsure who I would swap out. I have no hope for Egret in Falconers.

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Main drawback to me in minor guilds is that we’re way too predictable. Specially falconers. I play them quite weird as far a I can read. I don’t play for Devana, Ikaros instead. He gives you matches, pass him the ball.

I don’t usually spend more than 2 INF in Devana, she can be impressive damage dealer, but you need to set her up. This is about hitting the goal post with the ball, she can tackle from a safe distance. 

If you’re willing to deliver damage both rundaas and mataagi can be pretty nasty and with less setup needed.

I found Devana’s legendary most useful on turn 2. Most people tend to group when see a goal closing so delivering snared after second miniature from the opponent is activated leaves rundaas a pretty easy TO, that will trigger a free come on mate 😉

Frelsi is awesome, with snared on 1 hit, opponent will spend mp soon.

I tend to activate:

- frelsi/minerva 

- devana/rundaas/mataagi

- ikaros

 

other more “aggressive” would be:

- devana/minerva

- frelsi/rundaas

- mataagi

- ikaros

 

I tend to allocate inf as follows

1 frelsi

2 devana 

3 ikaros

2 mataagi 

2/3 minerva

3/2 rundaas

if I have more inf, both rundaas and minerva loaded always generate sweet MP, specially rundaas full loaded hits very consistent can be used as a first activation against someone snared to get and early TO.

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Thoughts on dropping Rundaas for Egret and going hard on goal scoring? If predictability is a problem swapping those out really changes the dynamic. Kick off with Egret, hope they leave the ball on someone she can reach, hit her T1<< off a charge and go for a goal. Let them have her. They'll waste some influence on her and hopefully bring the ball up the field a bit. They may even try for a turn 1 goal themselves. Back on your turn see if Mataagi can tackle it off and kick it back to Ikaros so he can go for another Turn 1 goal. Definitely something I'll be trying next time I'm kicking.

As much as I love Rundaas I feel like I'm wasting his activations more often than not. He comes off as wanting to do damage himself but ends up being more of a set up piece with dirty knives and harrier, because why would you choose damage before those. Leaving him gaining no momentum unless you put 3 or 4 influence on him and if I'm going for takeouts I'd rather those 2 influence on Devana and play off of Rundaas' setup.

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Tried the Egret for Rundaas swap last night. Went well and won but not the way I thought it would go. Had a potential turn 1 Egret goal but was one success short of the T1<<. Almost had a turn 1 Ikaros goal shot but was 1" shy. Was up against Order and ikaros couldn't get around that Pride counter charge. A bit of bad placement on me tho. I had ikaros behind a wall that he could fly over, which was the plan, but just close enough that he couldn't get a full 4" Dodge off the pass to him. Getting the full Dodge would of made the difference.

Ended up getting the win with a handful of takeouts and a Devana hack-back to position frelsi for the snapshot to finish it. 

Having Egret and Mataagi dealing their conditions on a handful of models each turn creates a huge dilemma for your opponent. Take the 2-5 damage or burn a lot of momentum healing, which practially gives up initiative next turn.

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I am also wondering if moving to a more goal scoring team is the way to go.  At the end of S3, I was trying for a 4-1 win condition, but now I am thinking that 2-2 might be the better approach, since the team does not kill models as fast as other guilds.

Team:  Devana, Frelsi, Ikaros, Egret, vHearne, Rundass

This team is made for speed and goal scoring.  Ideally set up an early goal run with Ikaros on T1, then try to peel the ball off someone with Devana to set up for a T2 goal.    Get Egret & Rundass on the wings, tackle the ball with Devana and then airmail to whoever is open.

 

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It surprises me people managing to tackle the ball easily. Even with hunters sub-ins ourctackles are far from reliable. Really all your opponent has to do is stay in cover and >6" from frelsi with a 4/1 or better 5/0 model and your at worse than 50% chance of getting the ball back with anyone other than Ikaros. And whilst he can get hold of the ball, its really difficult for him to disengage without losing it. Add to that air mail doesn't allow you to dodge off it like a normal pass or even long bomb, I think it's a really sub-optimal way to play the guild.

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On 10/30/2018 at 10:28 AM, mr baron said:

 

Team:  Devana, Frelsi, Ikaros, Egret, vHearne, Rundass

This team is made for speed and goal scoring.  Ideally set up an early goal run with Ikaros on T1, then try to peel the ball off someone with Devana to set up for a T2 goal.    Get Egret & Rundass on the wings, tackle the ball with Devana and then airmail to whoever is open.

 

If that build is "made for speed and goal scoring" then why is Mitaagi not in the line up?

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On 10/30/2018 at 6:48 PM, malladin.ben said:

I think it's a really sub-optimal way to play the guild.

If it's sub-optimal, why are they winning more playing that way?

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I've had better luck using frelsi to Assist Devana in the tackle, Hack Back Frelsi into goal range and snap shot it that way. The Assist ends up being a bit more situational. Better off tackling with someone else and getting her the ball instead.

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Just out of curiosity, how do people utilize Ikaros outside of the T1 goal?  That's the only success I've managed to have with him. After that, he seems to just take up space and be a battery almost. If he manages to get the ball again, he just gets Tackled or KD rather quickly. I've tried him in about 9 of my 16/17 games and seem to struggle fitting him into my playstyle. His mobility is great but I can't wrap my head around him. If he had close control or a paid dodge, I could probably understand him. Note: I'm coming from Masons. Any striker that's not Flint or doesn't have a paid dodge gives me a hard time. 

As for most success, my lineup with Devana, Frelsi, Mataagi, Minerva, VHearne, and Egret has been my go to. Usually is a 2-2 or 4-1 game. Mataagi and Egret on the wings. If the ball goes on one wing, whoever is on the other comes to support Devana and Minerva in the scrum. VHearne for assisting, occasional beat down, and the Last Light Harriers, typically on Minerva. Usually Frelsi is used just for assisting but I've had some instances where she's scored on a late activation with Devana dodge and Air Mail. If I'm facing a more footbally/fragile team, I'll mix in Rundaas in for one of the archers. 

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8 minutes ago, digitalgenepool said:

Just out of curiosity, how do people utilize Ikaros outside of the T1 goal?  That's the only success I've managed to have with him. After that, he seems to just take up space and be a battery almost. If he manages to get the ball again, he just gets Tackled or KD rather quickly. I've tried him in about 9 of my 16/17 games and seem to struggle fitting him into my playstyle. His mobility is great but I can't wrap my head around him. If he had close control or a paid dodge, I could probably understand him. Note: I'm coming from Masons. Any striker that's not Flint or doesn't have a paid dodge gives me a hard time. 

 

My suggestion is to keep him on an extreme wing outside the threat of other models after his first goal then use Devana's air mail to deliver him the ball.

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He can shift the ball a fair distance for very little influence, especially he's on a side of the pitch with fast ground. When you let a goal in, kick the ball out to him and run away with it.

I also use him as a distraction. With 2 influence he can threaten the ball quite nicely, or a goal fibhes got the ball on him. Vet Hearne can last light him to put him up effectively, too. It means there's a threat your opponent has to deal with, so draws models away from the scrum - I find you can get overwhelmed sometimes in that scrum if you're not careful.

And after that, if he's not using the 2 Inf to worry your opponent in any way he can just put down a harrier.

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14 hours ago, malladin.ben said:

Hence why it surprises me.

😉 I was of course meaning that it can't be sub-optimal if that style has a higher success rate than the traditional 'beater' style.

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9 hours ago, S_A_T_S said:

😉 I was of course meaning that it can't be sub-optimal if that style has a higher success rate than the traditional 'beater' style.

I'd need to see some cold hard facts backing that up before I'd accept it. One or two player's anecdotes does not prove a trend. But it does suggest that something previously discounted may be worth consideration. I just need it explaining to me how those seemingly fundamental issues they have with playing the football game are mitigated. 

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hello ppl. is ikaros and "auto include"? i so hate the model and never ever dont want to play him. what would you use instead? i was thinking of all the other box models with VHearne. 

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4 hours ago, m.jäger said:

hello ppl. is ikaros and "auto include"? i so hate the model and never ever dont want to play him. what would you use instead? i was thinking of all the other box models with VHearne. 

I cut the wings off mine and used the wings from a Dark Eldar (or whatever they're called nowadays) Scourge (or whatever they are being called nowadays). It was a very simple conversion and I'm happy with the result - looks a bit more of a gothic-punk angel than the crazy clockpunk flying man he was.

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