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AaronWilson.

When do we take Mataagi over Minerva?

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Title says it really. When do you feel Mataagi is a better squaddie pick then Minerva? I feel in games that are going to be faster paced (Shark, Pinvice, sBrisket) he’s a stronger pick.  He’s better at moving the ball and the ranged tackle is nice. 

I still feel he is quite niche as I feel Minerva does Mataagi does better in a lot of situations.

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I think Mataagi and Minerva have very different roles in game so I don't know if it's a good idea the comparison between them. Yes, they both have Harrier and are Falconers, but nothing more in common. Then, this decision may depend mainly on game styles, I think.

Maybe the real question would be why take Mataagi over Egret, because they have almost the exact role in the team.

And now I will make some apology of Egret:

  • Mataagi has the same problem that Egret has, a very unreliable play.
  • Mataagi's Hot Shot is a very handy trait, but you can't really trust in it for some works.
  1. Taking the ball: Against DEF4+, ARM1 targets, he has a 19% rate of success. Against DEF5+, ARM0 he has a 21% rate. With +1 TAC (Bonus Time or 1 Gang-Up), the chances raises to 34% and 32%, respectively. Therefore, we cannot trust in this trait to recover balls.
  2. Trigger Harrier: This work is more reliable, because you can select the most suitable target to trigger Harrier. Against DEF4+, ARM1 target, the rate is 50%; against DEF3+, ARM1 target, the rate is 79%. Furthermore, it generates Momentum.
  3. Generate Momentum: Mataagi only needs 1 net-hit and can select its target to generate momentum, so it's a very reliable action. Furthermore, he gets a Dodge.
  4. Inflict damage: The same odds as triggering Harrier (if you want Momentum or inflict damage against Tough Hide targets). Otherwise, the same odds as generating Momentum. He doesn't have the freedom to select target, but it's very likely we select some setup near-death target, so it's reliable.
  • Snap Fire isn't the best Character Play over there (1-die CP with little reward). The same problem with Egret.
  • If we compare a poisoned Flurry with a Harrier, maybe we can get some interesting conclusions. Flurry can inflict potentially 4 DMG to a target (2 from the CP, 2 from Poison), and without counting on other affected targets. To equalize the effect with Harrier (inflict that 4 DMG), we need to make at least 4 Attacks (not counting Wraps) against Harried targets. You can get more from Harrier, of course, if you invest more Influence. It's true that, with 1MP, the enemy removes the poison, but it's also true that the enemy can leave the Harrier AOE with the same ease.
  • IMO, Egret has better defensive tech than Mataagi. Egret's survivability depends mostly on Back to the Shadows, Swift Strikes and Flurry's range. Maatagi's only depends on his DEF5+.
  • In footballing terms, Mataagi has a (remote) chance to get the ball at distance, has the ability to get Momentum at distance has a greater goal threat (with 3 INF, Sprint (9") + Hot Shot attack selecting the Mom Dodge (1") + Shot (8") = 18") and has Light Footed. Egret has 1 more KICK and a reliable 16" goal threat (Sprint + Shot). It could be better but normally is a waste of influence (excepting for the Flurry dodge).
  • Both players need at least 2 INF to work well and to not rely on other team players. With 2 INF, both can make opportunity goal runs (Sprint + Shot) or use their support abilities (Hot Shot and Harrier with Mataagi, Flurry with Egret).

 

 

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Mataagi gives out Bleed and can potentially do this even at range - he is a spoiler model and a footballer. Have him activate last and give Bleed to several models. If Snared is also in the mix his chances increase and he will quickly become a problem. I don' think Mataagi activates early in the turn unless he has to.

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The same with Egret, she can activate last and spread some Poison with Snap Fire, Flurry or even standard Attacks. She benefits from Snared, too. It's true that Bleed does more damage in the short term, and Mataagi can get Momentum if he attacks in melee range or using Hot Shot (selecting his MOM 2 DMG result), but it's also true that Egret can do great damage, and in a safer way (thanks to Back to the Shadows and Swift Strikes). And apart from her inability to generate her own momentum, I don't see much difference between their footballing capacities.

Seriously, Mataagi's ability to tackle balls with Hot Shot is ridiculous. You need a very setup enemy target to get it reliably.

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I think Mataagi's 8" Kick is a red herring, as is his Harrier.

He really doesn't want to be spending influence playing the ball, or support game and relies on other setup too much to reliably tackle at range. He won't be generating heaps of momentum, but sticking models to bleed them out at range is why you take him.

He's gonna be my workhorse into Masons, Blacksmiths, and Morticians and other teams that rely on low Def/High Arm or low HP models. You need to kill something inside a Counter-Charge bubble? Unpredictable Movement? Chase Down someone with WTG or Shadowlike?

I wanna experiment with him and Egret to deal with high HP Tough Hide teams.

Ultimately I don't care if Mataagi makes anyones list, he'll make all of mine and I'm gonna be playing Mataagi with Egret and Theron until Steamforged says I can't anymore because goddamned archers man!

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The issue with both Egret & Mataagi is that they require 2 INF to do their signature play, and there is a high probability that it either misses, or does not accomplish anything. 

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17 hours ago, mr baron said:

The issue with both Egret & Mataagi is that they require 2 INF to do their signature play, and there is a high probability that it either misses, or does not accomplish anything. 

Mataagi has a 12 inch walk threat to trigger harrier using hot shot or snap fire for bleed all with one inf 

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The only time I see Mataagi making a six and not Minerva is in a high tempo, football-focused Skatha line up. Maybe something like Skatha, Fahad, vMinx, Jaecar, Zarola, Mataagi, lots of mobility and weird goal threats. But most of the time, I'd still rather run Minerva instead because her support abilities are just so good and reach is such a commodity in the guild. Theron likes her even more since he gets more value out of stacking Eye Spy with Singled Out and can more reliably take oHearne

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It seems people tend to agree that Minerva is more generally applicable. She looks like really good setup for mataagi to me. Along with Theron she can help you get the most out of him at range on turn one and eye spy and Harriet can aid his hotshot/dmg potential. having the two harriers seems super handy.

it allows you to use it as a tool to pressure activation order and still have another to put down for your big activation if they move away from the first.

Anyone planning to run both in a 6? I definitely think I'll end up taking Minerva much more often, and rarely take mataagi without her. a super aggressive Theron list would be my most likely place to run mataagi without Minerva I think.

In a matchup where you're trying to pressure the ball, have a lot of movement and have some dmg potential without a ton of fear of getting crumped in melee. maybe against engineers where the high def would help too? goal oriented blacksmiths? CPs should be reliable and bleed on apprentices would be brutal. obulous morts? help with UM and bleed on low health targets.

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I've been getting great performance out of Mitaagi.  He cranks Herne1, Jaecar and Theron's pontential waay up.  On more than one occasion I've been able to pin a model so it could not leave the Harrier.  If the other team has at least one model with poor def/armor, then Mitaagi's GB is pretty reliable.  When I play him, he tends to roam the far side of the field with 1-2 inf ready to pop a Harrier or shoot an opportunistic tap in.  His speed and hotshot allow him to provide support while staying mostly safe.

If I were to use Minerva to fill a similar role, it would be against a team that has very little damage output.  Her defensive stats make me super nervous.  It seems in a lot of cases that as soon as I commit her to set something up, she will die.  I think in most matchups she would be best used behind my captain and just paying for her character plays rather than trying to trigger them off the playbook.  If anyone comes after the captain, then she could trigger all her plays and set that model up for a take out.  I imagine her like a Cossette that does no damage.  If she touches something it will get taken out, but if she extends she gets taken out herself.  

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I have also been getting a bit of work out of Mataagi, and agree ramping up Theron, Hearne and Jaecars DMG potential is nice, especially the ranged dmg output. Have been running those four with Fahad and vMinx (who I love to bits). Dropping two or three traps at someone's feet and then putting a harrier over them and bleeding them with a snap fire before Theron activates and watching them squirm is sooo nice.

Have not run Minerva yet, she seems a little squishy to me and you can only do one or the other of her abilities (without a blessing) from range in an activation. Will proxy her into a game tomorrow night and see what my thoughts are after that.

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@masterkdog and @Cleavelander I notice you both bring up Minerva being fragile but it doesn’t seem to be as much a concern about Mataagi for you. Is that because Mataagi can do his thing from range and Minerva needs to be closer to be more effective or becasue Mataagi has been tough to kill with 5/0 defense? I haven’t had a chance to proxy the Falconers yet so I’m curious what you think.

At 5/0 with 10 boxes and no way to get away from danger I feel Mataagi and Minerva are about the same difficulty to remove, but would be happy to be wrong. 

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You know what @Cincinnati GBC I am not actually sure why I feel that way. There is certainly no science behind it now that you ask the question. Could just be that I've played Mataagi twice and he has not been TO'd at all... I watched the Blacksmiths vs Falconers match on youtube last night and started to see the benefits of Minerva so am definitely looking forward to giving her a go. Just won't be tonight as planned, thanks to the 9 month old not wanting to sleep for the last couple of nights :huh: For those of you without children I will translate it into GB terms. Baby: Mov 1/18, Tac 12, Kick 1/12, Def 9, Arm 0, Inf 0/8. Playbook looks like this :momKD: :mom5: :mom7: :momPD: :momGB: The mom GB play is called: Exaustipated pulse 36" - the baseline stats of all other players are all reduced to 0. This model may make an attack against all enemy models within the pulse. This model gains possession of the ball and makes a sprint directly towards the opposition goal it may then make free a shot with a free bonus time....

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That makes sense. Good to hear he wasn’t taken out in both games becasue I was expecting him to go pretty easily. 

That sounds about right for the 9 month old. Just enjoy it though man. You hear this advice everywhere, but time goes by way too fast, especially with kids. Mine are 6 and 4 now which is mind blowing for me. 

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Aha I also have a 7 and 5 year old which compounds the 9 month old pain...

The one thing I am yet to do with Mataagi is really press him into combat. The one time I have he was already engaged by Hoist and didn't do much other than, harrier, mom1dmg (after tough hide) and bleed for 2 inf, I hate Hoist!!!! Stupid robot, just let me kill you.

As mentioned above (I think), Dropping a harrier off Hotshot then flinging one Snap fire for the bleed is nice, then getting vMinx up there as a 5+ 1 is super solid, I find she manages to hold down a couple of players really well while the rest of the team just do their thing.

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Yes, @Cincinnati GBC speed and hotshot help Mataagi to stay relatively safe.  At 5/0 with 10 hp he's really not any more survivable than Minerva.  FWIW she even has better counter attacks than him.  

I think that there will be many situations where Minerva has to expose herself to potential TO in order to have an impact on the match whereas Mitaagi will could support while staying out of enemy threat ranges.  Best way to block a punch is to not be there.  I think Minerva is higher risk for a greater reward.  


To that effect, I expect Minerva will be great in matches where the enemy doesn't excel at killing your models.  I'll try her in plenty of matchups to see how she performs, but that is my outlook.

 

@masterkdog How potent have you found the ranged damage game with these additions?  I typically avoid that playstyle with the hunters as they are a bit inefficient at turning ranged character plays into momentum.  I'll use pinned/sniped/skewered to spread snare and control a model, but not to really pour on the damage. 

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@Cleavelander I found with the right activation order it ramps it nicely and is a great turn one tactic that can be used to either put early pressure on their kicker, or an advanced player. Mataagi goes third to last, on his turn gets out a Harrier using hotshot and does one snapfire for 2DMG and bleed (or pay for Harrier and hotshot the attack). Then Theron goes, forest drop within 4 of Hearne) Sun strikes himself, Sun strikes Hearne (if he doesn't need to sprint) walk Snipe for 3dmg and snare, Pin for 3 dmg, then spend one mom to do another snipe for 3dmg. So far your opponent has taken 11 dmg and is snared and bleeding. Finally Hearne ports to the forest and if done well enough fires a skewer for 4dmg which normally takes out the mini if not he walks up and finishes them off. I find just at range I normally finish turn one on 4 mom which is generally enough to get turn two activation (pending game plan cards). So yeah getting like 15 dmg out turn one for mom gain of about 4 is pretty sweet.

Now obviously it requires you to either target a player that has activated, or they move away which is where having other threats on the table like vMinx and Jaecar are great, use them to apply pressure to the ball and I find it buys me more time to get my ranged stuff going on. If your opponent chooses to move away and is in possession of the ball, it is kind of a win as you are buying yourself board space (most times).

I have made more gains out of ranged dmg buff than melee with harrier atm. Mostly because I was playing into plenty of tough hide (I hate Hoist!!).

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I'm not buying these "more survivable" arguments, as both models have to apply their abilities from 6" away, meaning that they put themselves in the same threat as one another. The main difference is if you want to attempt to hit the Harrier via playbook to save an influence, then Mataagi does edge out Minerva, but that is more a question of influence efficiency and not survivability. 

 

I'm also not going to math out if a 5/0 model with 10 boxes is easier/similar/harder to kill than a 3/1 model with 15 boxes.

 

To me, the question to take either Mataagi or Minerva  is Mataagi's kick stat, ranged attacks, speed, and bleed vs Minerva's 2" reach, KD, and excellent support.

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TAC5 for GB on 1 or 2 is also really important, so I think. Mataagi can't safely trigger Harrier with the Playbook against 4-1.

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With a TAC5 v a 4/1, the probability is 50% of scoring the MOM GB on the two column.  Over the course of the game, if you take 4 shots, you will statistically hit twice.

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I feel people are not factoring in eyespy for your main damage dealers.

 

For me minerva is much more useful in a game where you expect to be fighting rather than playing at range. Jeacar with effective tac 8 and anatomical plus potential harrier is a scary prospect...additionally you have snared and kd in the team. Activation order issues aside....one advantage is eyespy cant be removed unlike conditions

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On ‎6‎/‎3‎/‎2018 at 12:58 AM, Stephen78 said:

I feel people are not factoring in eyespy for your main damage dealers.

 

For me minerva is much more useful in a game where you expect to be fighting rather than playing at range. Jeacar with effective tac 8 and anatomical plus potential harrier is a scary prospect...additionally you have snared and kd in the team. Activation order issues aside....one advantage is eyespy cant be removed unlike conditions

Upping that one more obviously the eye spy plus singled out and Jaecar is going in at TAC 10...

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