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Perry89

Possibly tweeks in S4

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After listening to another quality podcast from my boys from Dodge dodge here in Australia, In a interview with Bryce about the falconers there was mentions on Egret , vHearne and Ulfr and possible tweeks in S4 due to the release of Mataagi and Minerva possibly filling there roles. If you have not listened to them check them out and let me know your thoughts. 

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1 hour ago, ForestRambo said:

I’d like vHearne, Ulfr & Skatha to get some love.

WHHHAAAATATTTTATATATT?!??! *mind blown* :)

I totally 100% agree. And fix Snow so bloody 'Oooh Ball' actually FRICKIN WORKS (hint: lose DIRECTLY, make it work at kick off).

Yes the Winter people need buffs. Skatha just needs her blessing to self-target I think and 6" range. Hearne2 needs a re-work - he looks like the intern copy pasted Hearne1 and changed a few bits - job done. Re-work his playbook, move him to TAC 6, Give him 2/4 INF. Lose stupid Lunar Eclipse (OMG what was the design team smoking that day) and replace with some actually WORKABLE teleport tech (easy fix - make the teleport work on any successful attack).

Egret - GIVE. HER. LIGHT. FOOTED. She is the only human that doesn't have it in the team and is irritates me sooooo much.

Seenah - Harrier helps her a lot but still I would like her to gain KNOCKBACK. I mean she's a goddamn bear - you get hit by a 500 kg bear, you're going to move.

Zarola - I don't want to hear it people - she has the worst playbook in the game. I could't care less that Midnight Offering is amazing - Hemlock2 has shown that you can have that AND 2" AND a great playbook. She needs a re-work.

 

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With the kill pressure the Falconers offer, I'm down to wanting mostly qol buffs which I think are on par with what every other guild also deserves to their underperforming models.

Skatha - Now when I say qol I'm mostly meaning Skatha because she is absolutely miserable to play. 4" Range on her blessing, 6" Range on her Kick. Does she really need to be a 5/7 mov?! 1" Melee w/ Tac 5, 5-0 Def, 14hp, Tackle on 2 Hits. Influence HUNGRY. Opponents can use your fast-ground against you and because her kit is pre-emptively nerfed around it, she doesn't gain a real benefit from native fast-ground unlike Fillet, Shark, Pin Vice or other speedy mcspeedster captains. Skatha feels like she pays a heavy price just to exist, and I've never found her rewards to really be worth it.

vHearne - I don't know what he needs, but he needs something. oHearne dies to a stiff breeze because of his lack of defensive abilities. No Sturdy, Poised, Stoic, Tough Hide, anything. So perhaps vHearne could contrast oHearne and be pushed to a tarpit type model?

Egret - In addition to the aforementioned Light Footed, I still think she could do with a momentous 1 on 1 damage, or a momentous playbook trigger for her snap-fire ability. (which would require changing it to another ability but that's more than doable) Linear goal threats and difficult tackle are the price Egret should pay for being able to meaningfully contribute to the damage game, after getting the Falconers, I'd be sad if they decided to push her to be a better striker, as her defining play - Flurry, is one that only contributes to the takeout game. I also think there's room for experimentation with another Character or Heroic Play on Egret that could help her contribute to the control or damage game.

Seenah - The Falconers help, but I still feel like the Bear struggles to make herself worth taking. Assuming that you're gonna be playing Harrier to set her up, you're looking at a functional -6 Influence/Turn. Her threat range is still low and her base size leads her to getting nonbo'd with Theron's forest too often for my liking. I'm not sure if the solution is to make her higher payoff with a higher tac and easier to reach higher damage results, or easier to setup with a more consistent threat range. Seenah right now just fails to fulfill the fantasy of a BEAR. Whatever happens to her, I want the point of comparison to be to vKatalyst who is everything Seenah should be and more, all while bringing 2 influence for his team.

Ulfr - The less said about this dumpster fire the better.
Zarola - If she's not going to have a playbook then can she at least have a 4/6 kick or a 6/8 mov? Both? 2/4 Inf? A playbook?
Snow - Snow just feels weird, compared to the things other mascots can do for free, Anatomical for 1 Inf and Pack Mentality just feel ehhhh.
Theron - I will never enjoy paying 1 for Sun Strike, and the placing restrictions on the forest is still too restrictive. (Same w/ Skatha's fast ground.) I will die on this hill.

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Hey All, Still kinda new to the game but I will take a crack at this.

Egret: Light Footed for sure. If not that, something that lets her do something like if she starts her turn 8" the board edge she can use gliding without spending MP.  Even with that tweak, I think when putting her up against Mataagi I think he still outshines her, even with his weaker kick.  He is faster, and does more for the team. So I have been toying with the idea of "specialty poisons/venom", something like this:

Heroic: "The Right Tool.."

The next time this turn Egret applies the poison condition to an enemy, they also suffer the following effect: -2/-2 move, -1 tac or -1 def. This effect lasts until the end of the turn.

Seenah: I think the bear would really benefit from Sturdy, and 1/2 inf. 

VHearne: Give him Tac 6 and replace Lunar Eclipse with something that actually matters..  maybe like a shitty Lend a hand, Like he gives an extra crowding out penalty. Like a cold aura or pack tactics.. 

Snow: Change OOH Ball! to whenever a ball is passed, kicked or a free ball is placed within 6". He can make a Jog.. or something. But once per turn of course.  I think of it more of like moving with the pack to help protect the ball.

Ulfr:  Give him Tac 5. Give him MOM 1 dmg on 1, make his 2nd column a 1dmg GB,  make his MOM Tackle a GB instead of a dodge and Change "Where did they go" to "Quick Time". Change Lone Hunter to "Prey Drive: When Charging an enemy model that is not within 4" of another enemy model Ulfr gains +0/+2 move and +1 Tac.". 

 

I dunno.. Just my musings..

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I was excited to hear that they were looking at some of the lesser played Hunter models.  Skatha, vHearne & Ulfr need some love.  I would be happy if they just added light footed to Egret.  It would be fantastic if Egret had a way to snare to make up for the loss Minx.

 

...I am going to miss Minx...

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41 minutes ago, mr baron said:

It would be fantastic if Egret had a way to snare to make up for the loss Minx.

Can you imagine Egret with Hunter's Prey

I think Zarola's Chain Bolas should get a playbook trigger and then you could experiment with giving Egret an 8" target enemy model suffers 2DMG + Snared? There's a lot you can do with Egret and I really hope she gets something to make her a stronger force on the team.

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I have idle thumbs and opinions I am not entitled to:

needs work

skatha

my ice queen. The reason I play guild ball. Her strength is tricky goal scoring, threat range manipulation, and Jack of all trades master of none flexibility. I feel she requires an unsually high level of skill and knowledge of the game to perform well. Outside of this fine skill honing, she has a high risk/average reward game.

Her personal weakneses are:

being squishy and at the same time being required to play a midfield role to be effective.

tac 5, melee 1" is not reliable when attempting to dodge through an enemy team to retrieve the ball they are hiding. Hitting her tackle on a 4/1 model is usually a 50% success deal.

Her weaknesses as a captain is:

She is a footballer in a team geared for takeouts.

This means she is likely to be out-footballed by nearly any other footbally team in the game, and if going for take outs she is an output downgrade from theron. Skathas niche is therefore into teams theron can't out-fight and, by definition, she also can't outfight. A depressing number of these still outfootball me too.

There are two key tensions here.

First, Hunters are quite squishy players. Hunters survive by spreading out, avoiding the scrum and diluting the enemy's output. Theron assists this with forests, enemy movement control and ranged (momentus) damage. skatha covers this almost purely with friendly movement support (there is conflict between cold snap and nature's chill). I submit one is trickier to achieve than the other. But really this is fine if what skatha team looses in defence they make up in pressure... I submit that they don't.

Hunters generally struggle with ball retrieval, probably because theron teams can kill the ball rather well. Skatha is probably our best retriever. This is a dangerous role for the key striker and captain whose team really want her to support them. Thus enemies holding the ball have a great deal of control over the hunters game. A big part of hunters ball control seems to me to be theron disrupting the enemy from getting to our ball holders (zarola or fahad). Skathas abilities skew toward keeping the ball in play, this is problematic in the very common circumstance where this is better for the enemy team than hunters.

In essence there is tension between her mechanics and he way most of the rest of the team opporates.

I think her personal weaknesses would be helped by being able to bless herself. I get that dodges are powerful, but it costs one of her inf or mom, and requires her not to be kd before counter. She seems to be designed with the idea she will always have her legendary active so i think this could go some way to rebalancing her survivability. In terms of reliability tac 6 or built in anatomical would be nice, but I'm content enough with invest in set up or go risky situation currently. 

Her team mechanic weaknesses I'm less sure about how to solve, but tweaking the other winters moon models would seem the place to start.

snow

fahad is leagues better in almost every match up, and where it's not there still isn't much in it. I like anatomical and pack instincts, but they just dont happen. Oooh ball is terrible. Some kind of ranged ball retreival, pass assist/interference would be nice.

vhearne

Thinks he is hearthe. Isn't. Needs actual tarpit tech, or to have his goal threat increased. Eclipse makes me laugh every time I think of it, omg that daisy chain demo...

ulfr

Fix it. Fix it with fire. Id vote give him crazy and armour 1.

([edit] Ulfr's problems stem from his vulnerability and awkward playbook. I'm actually starting to like lone hunter, its fun and balances the model's footballer vs beater role, keep it and redo the playbook. Armour 1 would work, but isn't very thematic - back to the shadows or 12ish wounds tough hide would make me so happy.).

 

Fine/quality of life

egret

perfectly happy with her. Can see why others feel light footed is missing

seenha

Well balanced. Does her job if played reasonably, has acceptable weaknesses. Doesn't FEEL like a bear.

zarola

Very strong model, garbage playbook she doesn't use/need seems wasteful.

no changes needed/eyeing the nerf bat

chaska

think he is boss, perfectly happy with him.

jaecar

Carried the team for so long, everyone knows he's a star. Leave him alone sfg pleeease

fahad

Top teir mascot

ohearne

Makes me tempted to paint theron so I can use him, seems a lot of fun.

theron

Really good captain now by all accounts

 

 

 

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What are people thinking the changes to theron could be in S4? 

My bet is for losing blessing of the sun father and making it a scion only heroic play. 3 in a team with no counter synergy is a bit good, right? Replaced with a legendary of some flavour.

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I am hoping that Theron stays close to his current power level and that Skatha gets a buff to be brought up to Theron's general power level.  My gut thought is that Theron stays as is and that Skatha gets a buff to her scoring ability to balance out the damage dealing nature of Theron.

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I've played quite a lot of hunters recently, and they are my favorite team at the moment. I think Theron is at a really good spot right now strength wise, but usually when I win with Skatha it's because my opponent made a mistake (or missed a goal). That said I didn't practice her that much as Theron, but her team is quite handicapped compared to the "A team".

I think the greatest problem with hunters lies in their design. I feel like all our playbooks are tailored with snared enemies in mind, and other models like Skatha are having additional handicaps, because of her fast ground, etc. This stops snared being a fun and unique boon to the team, and makes it into a tax you have to apply to do anything well. I feel like this mechanic is balanced well for a Theron team, since they hand out snared like candy. On the other hand a Skatha team doesn't have too much easy to hand out snared options, and other guilds started getting "free" condition removals in the new boxes, that makes her life even harder.

This leads to my wish for S4 hunters: if nothing else, please look into the tackle potential of the team. Looking through our figures, the best we get is T on column 2 and 3, having TAC 4 or 5 on these figures. This means if the enemy simply parks a 4/1 figure in cover, we have to roll 3 success out of 4 die to tackle the ball, and this is one of the better chances for tackleing in the team without snared (even with 5 dice, T against 4/1 is 50%, and it usually just gets worse). I think little changes would go a long way to help our ball game, like our better ball players getting +1 TAC (they probably wouldn't turn into damage machines, but slight playbook changes could be needed).

If I could have 2 wishes, the second would be to give us answer for some matchups, that I think is really one sided if an experienced player plays the other team. Some of these matchups for me is Esters brewers (Friday+Esters+Spigot), Hammer masons (might get better with falconers ranged help, but he is pretty much untouchable in melle if the enemy is clever), and Pin Vice engineers (can't really get ball against two 5/0 and close control, and inf is usually not enough to kill reanimated figures when snared is lost).

Some quick character improvement ideas, but I don't have that much useful ones :)

Skatha: give her +1TAC, and maybe +1MOV, and as others said let her bless herself. Theron learned how to do it aswell :).

Snow: I started to use her when I want to play ball, since feral instincts boosts our chances a lot. That said, I don't want to pay 1 inf for it, other mascots can do stronger things for free. Either let her do it for free, or if that would be too much, stick an oktoberfest hat on her and change it to a free +1TAC like Quaff

Egret: I agree with light footed, and if possible +1 TAC :) (might get too much if Snow can hand out 1 aswell)

Seenah: Compared to other guilds characters with free charge and huge damage, she just feels really lacklustre, maybe forget about the +VP and make her feel more like the rampaging bear she is? I think she would need more damage at the top of her playbook (I know, but if the enemy is snared, we can't get more damage since it's easier to reach), OR she should bring inf. But the best would be a complete overhaul :).

Zarola: at first I didn't really used her, now she is the MVP in most of my games. Just remove her playbook alltogether, it confuses new players. But in all seriousness as someone mentioned previously, vet. Hemlock showed us that Zarola could still improve a lot, and SFG was a little too cautious when the hunters were designed.

Ulfr: No matter how many times I try him, I always feel he is just one inf short to do what I want him to. Either he runs out of inf to kick, or if you want to get momentum, you can't improve your kick, or by the time Skatha gives him fast ground + dodge the ball carrier just walks away, etc. He is usually good for 1 goal, but playing him is more like a necessity, since we don't really have other options (Jaecar is fast and shoots at 8, but 2 kick is quite bad if your win conditions are goals). He would be infinitely more fun if he had a T+1 damage result in one of his columns, or a <+1 damage maybe. I think it would fit with his theme, and pulling it off would feel great aswell.

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2/3 INF for oHearne. Fielding  him and Seenah  together put teh HUnters at a serious disadvantage. Of course you're going to take the bear, it's a bear! But that means you're not taking oHearn

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I have no idea but my spidey sense is tingling that SFG might think Hunters are too good now. I know right? WTF. But with the addition of Minx2 and Minerva (and some other guy) they might now be...top tier. Even though Seenah (guys, everyone else in Hunters does more DMG or has better KDs - just...stop. She is bad), Ulfr, Hearne2 are junk, it seems likely that T-man and the Hearne might get cuddled, possibly also Jaecar (because Harrier). I hope I'm wrong. But I'm fairly sure SFG just don't want Hunters to ever have the Iron Throne. For some reason.

My biggest problem with Hunters are that half the guild is amazing (now, finally) and half is total bobbins. But alas the awesome half might be inviting a cuddle. 

So play Hunters while you can!

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4 hours ago, EpicChris said:

I hate fun, bacon sucks, and I support kicking kittens.

I'll knife fight you.

 

Seenah is the most consistent KD on the team.  Also, outside of Theron or a fully loaded Chaska quad Boom Box who can out damage Seenah? Jaecar is a great damage dealing model, but is very vulnerable to counter attacks, requiring him to usually pin ball around to avoid the counter. I think a lot of players have the wrong impression that Seenah has a set role of dealing damage. A lot of teams do struggle taking out the bear, and her threat projection is something a lot of teams have to factor in when making their plans. If my opponent wants to commit 2+ models to handle the bear, thats a trade I'll usually take. Her ability to unengage herself is vastly under-rated.  And while this is a personal opinion, her 0/2 inf is not a deal breaker (though making her 1/2 would help her a ton). My biggest issue with Seenah is her tendency to get KD. C'mon SFG, it's a bear, a 14 year old girl should not be able to turf a bear.  I'd like to see a rule on Seenah that would make it impossible or very difficult for smaller base sized models to knock her down.

 

Also, embrace the Vet Hearne quad boom box.

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Honestly, I think ALL guilds deserve substantial buffs, but the Hunter's are starting to feel like a strong team, and it is a bit worrying because as mentioned the only models who've really been addressed are Theron and Hearne while the bulk of the team still sits in this place where you're really not excited to ever take them.

It's hard to buff them without then seeing how those buffs would make the guild the top-tier, but then to address that I think we'd need to buff the other guilds, which I'm all for but I haven't played them as much to understand their weaknesses so I just sortof have to adsorb which models aren't really used and suggest they be buffed, which is also a delicate balance because if they perform their role better than other models then you've just upped the power without upping the choices and plenty of other pitfalls.

I guess that's more a conversation about balance as a whole rather than Hunters but shrug

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2 hours ago, Anudem said:

I'll knife fight you.

 

Seenah is the most consistent KD on the team.  Also, outside of Theron or a fully loaded Chaska quad Boom Box who can out damage Seenah? Jaecar is a great damage dealing model, but is very vulnerable to counter attacks, requiring him to usually pin ball around to avoid the counter. I think a lot of players have the wrong impression that Seenah has a set role of dealing damage. A lot of teams do struggle taking out the bear, and her threat projection is something a lot of teams have to factor in when making their plans. If my opponent wants to commit 2+ models to handle the bear, thats a trade I'll usually take. Her ability to unengage herself is vastly under-rated.  And while this is a personal opinion, her 0/2 inf is not a deal breaker (though making her 1/2 would help her a ton). My biggest issue with Seenah is her tendency to get KD. C'mon SFG, it's a bear, a 14 year old girl should not be able to turf a bear.  I'd like to see a rule on Seenah that would make it impossible or very difficult for smaller base sized models to knock her down.

 

Also, embrace the Vet Hearne quad boom box.

BONESAW IS READY!!! *Cage Match* :)

Seriously though, for all the things you say about Seenah, Theron and Hearne can do better and not remove 2 INF from the team. Seenah's issue is that she is a massive target but is not that strong to taking it. I think Seenah should be more of a tank (LOOK. AT. THE. MODEL...) but isn't. And I know SFG think she's some sort of sweeper but if I want a model taken out I can get so much work out of Theron, Hearne or Jaecar why would I take a -2 INF bear? 

And she's so bloody easy to hit for Character Plays and her Counter Attacks are terrible. She is also so easy to KD and TO or farm. 

The other issue she has is that Bear Hug is waaaay too high up the playbook. Compare Snack Break. And it has to be the attack that takes the model out! That is insane on a TAC 7 model that needs 6 successes to trigger it! When are you doing this except in rare circumstances someone leave a 4 Wound model left near Seenah??

And sure it does 4 DMG - but I only get 3 bloody attacks out of Seenah! She suffers from basically being a 0/3 model and she doesn't have the DMG output or power of models such as Scourge or Windle or others. She is big, freakin' bear and she gently pats people on the head - WHILE COSTING YOU 2 INF! If she were 2/2 with Furious then maybe I would take her a sweeper but what on earth justifies her being 0/2? For 0/2 I expect explosive DMG - but she doesn't do that. Compare Fallow or Windle (who are in a team that can literally print INF if they want and both have INF efficiency) who can do insane DMG if they want. 

Seenah is a poor choice over Hearne1, Jaecar, Minx2, Minx1, Chaska and going forward Minerva. Why would you EVER take her in a 6? She penalises the team for mediocre output.

Math time: Against 4+/1 she has a 72% chance to hit 5 successes (50% to hit 6) - so 2 DMG and KD, then she follows up with two attacks that have 83% chance to hit 3 successes (57 to hit 4). That's 4 more DMG. Oh wow - you spent 4 INF (because 0/2 is a thing) to achieve 6 DMG and a KD. Wow. If you managed to Snare the target and they don't clear it because your opponent is insane then sure, you have 71% to do Bear Hug and then the same as above or 88% to 3 DMG and KD and then 90% to do 4 (NON-MOM) a hit for 11 DMG. That's pretty good - only gets you 1 MOM though - and definitely not Bear Hug TO. But how often is a Snared model left near Seenah?

For Reference Hearne1: Against 4/1, 80% to hit Singled Out, 77% to hit 2 DMG twice, and throw the spear for 1 MOM (and maybe bonus time) at 75%-(87% with BT) for 3 more DMG - 7 DMG, 1-2 Momentum and it only cost the team 1 INF not 2.

I do not like Seenah as is. She needs more WOW or she just won't get taken.

 

1 hour ago, TheLieutenant said:

#nerfhunters

You're going on the list... @Jamie P is already on there after the weekend...He knows what he's done...

;)

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Usually I just summarize to say her input/output ratio is off.

She needs too much setup and offers too little payoff, especially when compared to the other guilds' Furious models, but the math always helps.

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Seenah, like most of the Hunter's line up, is balanced around the idea that she's hitting a snared target.  So -1DEF, and she's getting +1 DMG.

But the number of times I'm actually able to hit a snared target with anyone on the Hunter's is fairly low, and if it does happen, it's a function of my opponent just deciding it's not worth it to clear the conditions and instead going for a goal or takeout instead.

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Seenha bear bare fight!

Gave my thoughts on Seenha above, but...

4 hours ago, EpicChris said:

why would I take a -2 INF bear?

because you play Skatha and will.not.take.oHearne.if.can't.use.EVERYTHING.on.his.card.  

For Theron players... I got nothing.

11 hours ago, EpicChris said:

my spidey sense is tingling

Mine too. The walls of my echo chamber reverberate with respectful murmers about how solid theron is into almost anything, and not unreasonable grumbles about what a drag the experience of facing him is.

I put it to this forum that Theron and his merry band of Fahad, oHearne, Zarola, Jaecar, vMinx or Minerva make the pick over all the other players in a nice cliche 90% of matchups in which you are bringing your A game.

Dr. Mo11usq diagnoses the problem as:

Winters Moon not healthy. Perscribe some more self-sufficient players who can survive being spread out with mathematically realistic abilities to retreive and play the ball, or if out of stock, inject a couple of synergistic players that can hold ground long enough to make a good go of a 2-2 game instead of simply feeding the enemy points (all damage options being set up requiring hit and run missiles is proving rather too difficult for me at least). Side effects include: making Theron an unholy terror.

Anything that beefs Skatha and which Theron can take will beef him more.

If SFG's intent is to make more models viable within a guild, in this egotists glorious opinion, they will either nerf Theron (easy), make Skatha a one-angry-snow-dwarf team (poor game design), or subdivide the team further by make more players inefficient without Skatha's abilities, a la the reverse of the current state of oHearne (complicated).   

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11 hours ago, EpicChris said:

 How come no one ever talks about the good things Hitler did.

I'll give you that Seenah leaves the team with a -2 inf pool, but it's intentionally mis-leading to claim that using her is a -4 inf sink. The inf pool is finite, and you cannot take external measurements of inf use to make a point. If anything, I can make the case that Seenah comes with two built in inf in the form of a free charge. The inf loss is a definite sticking point for a lot of people. I usually get a lot of use from Seenah, so the 0/2 inf stat is a sacrifice I am willing to make. Some decide it's not. Same can be argued about oHearne's 1/3 inf stat costing the team a net 1 inf and whether people want to play with as much inf as possible or not.

 

I don't buy your oHearne math for the simple fact that if you land Singled Out for your first hit, you are opening yourself up to a counter attack should your target have 2" melee. Realistically if you're going in on a 2" reach model you should either charge and hope for the wrap or look for the KD to diminish the risk of a counter attack.  Luckily he can pop off a Skewered shot should he get pushed off his target, so the activation wouldn't be a major waste. Seenah KD's better than every model in Hunters. Mom KD on 2 is easily better than Theron, Chaska, Skatha, and the Hearne's. 

 

I agree that Bear Hug needs some work, and a bear should not be so easily knocked down.

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Hearne1 and Theron's forest mean he should be b2b. No counterattack matters at that point.

But while we disagree, we can at least agree Seenah needs Something. My view is Knockback (Make her counters worthwhile) and Sturdy. At the least. I still think we need to have a conversation about Berserk. She's a frickin bear man.

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I agree with berserk being a good idea for the bear. I think Seenah should be 0/1 Inf with Berserk as well as furious, that way she can get four attacks out a turn for increased output. Still keeps a drain on the teams INF but wouldn't be quite as detrimental as it is now.

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3 hours ago, EpicChris said:

Hearne1 and Theron's forest mean he should be b2b. No counterattack matters at that point.

But while we disagree, we can at least agree Seenah needs Something. My view is Knockback (Make her counters worthwhile) and Sturdy. At the least. I still think we need to have a conversation about Berserk. She's a frickin bear man.

That was nice and civil. Can we still have that knife fight?

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