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Banjulhu

Season 4: Expectations, Hopes and Wishlisting

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So we know that season 4 is on the horizon and from the limited bits of scuttlebutt coming out of SFGs it sounds like it will be a lot like the transition to season 3, which was a lot like the transition to season 2, namely a few core rules tweaks and a balance pass.

To my mind that means very little is probably going to change with the Fish because for the most part the team has a good internal balance.

Personally I'ld like to see Shark get a rework from the ground up like Midas did but all I think we can expect at best is for Stagger to be replaced with something useful.

Corsair will likely remain unchanged but with the loss of all Union options before season 4 it means we'll not know what kind of state he will be in meaning he could see some tweaking.

Angel I can see getting 2" melee as her fix, as that bit of extra melee range could help her massively in the ball retrieval game which.

Kraken... I just dont know. He is definitely one of the team's most underused models at the moment but I'm not sure how I would actually make him more attractive in his current design space. Maybe let him bring 2Inf and give him a 3/6" kick to better mesh with the team?

vSiren. The 2017 nerf made her place on a roster very rocky and the loss of A&G means there is less low def scrums needing her help, but I think all she really needs is a 2nd character play that can be used at range.

Sakana is probably overused in season 3 but I think that is more down to him not having much competition for his slot on a team so I dont know if a nerf is what he needs.

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Speculating about the guild's future is hard at the moment as we've got 3 new players on the before S4 drops.  With the navigators, I'm expecting the guild to swing even more towards the 3-0 game plan.

I agree, though, that Kraken, Angel and vSiren will get a re-work.

Currently Kraken is really slow and doesn't bring enough INF to make him worth playing. He gets out shone by Gutter in pretty much every way. Again this will change once the Navigator's drop, but I'm still not seeing a place for him on a fish team.

Angel: There's not really much point in taking her. Everybody who is as good a striker brings something else to the table.

vSiren: Currently, she just feels a bit... useless. Beyond making it harder for your opponent to attack, she doesn't really bring much to the take. She is the faster player on the team, though (not counting buy-able dodges).

Finally Sakana. Before speculating on his changes (not that I'm expecting any) we should wait to see what vSakana brings. Hopefully he'll be well balanced against his original version making it a meaningful choice between the 2.

 

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On thing I would like to see is for Jac's playbook to be fixed.

He has been dragging around a double push and a double push + tackle on his 5th column since season 1.

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Only fish models I don't use are vSiren and Angel.

Angel I've already beaten to death in a fish guild thread somewhere. 

vSiren she's very close. I personally don't use her because I don't like spending resources on defense, but I've seen great players who do use her and situations where she's super helpful. Mild tweak to he offensive output maybe.

Kraken I'm also fine with. The only thing I could see changing to buff him for the non-believers without losing what makes him great is raw stat numbers, mostly influence.

Jac is it a weird spot as well like the 2 above. People complain about his playbook all the time, but besides changing where the damage and >> is (it could be lower) I don't know how I'd change it without removing why I like him. Ringout and T on 1 is just really good. Yes he has problems generating 4 momentum over 4 attacks but that should make you evaluate why generating more than 1 momentum with him was part of your plan.

I think shark is in a healthy spot power wise, but I always loved him as a control captain. I'd totally trade his legendary to have gut and string back. If so that would let me play him as repeated control again instead of just one turn of better control. Not really a prediction so much as a wish.

But really though it's impossible to really speculate what needs what when we have 3 new toys coming

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2 hours ago, Ik-tornado said:

Kraken I'm also fine with

Can I tempt you to the fish player summaries thread then? :D

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Kraken could benefit from being our Tenderiser/Compound - if he's staying at 1 inf., then give him Rush Keeper or Goal Defence - make him useful in both Captains' set ups

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3 hours ago, Pinball said:

Kraken could benefit from being our Tenderiser/Compound - if he's staying at 1 inf., then give him Rush Keeper or Goal Defence - make him useful in both Captains' set ups

It's unlikely you'd actually want either of those traits unless your opponent is at 8 points. If they make a goal that means you are very likely to get a goal immediately afterwards. Rush keeper would be less of an issue in that regard at least, but if we're looking to offset his influence then they can just increase his efficiency reduced/alternative cost drag or something like that.

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I think I would be fine if Kraken lost drag. It's a strong enough ability to be captain only. And it would allow them the chance to change his inf stat to something we'd all appreciate more while opening up his design space for something new. His playbook is fine after his last buff and his low speed and def should be enough to keep him balanced. 

The question is what is kraken supposed to do? I think it was originally to tar pit specific players, control the space around him, and protect Siren.  I think maybe if he had a play that caused snared a-la skewered that would fit his theme and be useful for us. 

For vetSiren I would just like her playbook to go back to 3 columns. She doesn't need to print mp but I don't understand why she can't have the ability to cut someone pretty good when she's  1" melee and we officially have no offensive buff's with the loss of singled out. 

As far as Jac goes, his rookie cards have a ton of cool options and I hope they rework him in the image of some of those rules. 

Shark I sort of want to see get a rework. He's definitely not bad by any stretch but I absolutely loath stagger at 3 on his playbook. I also generally feel that some of the characters who were in the game since Kickstarter could be reworked to adjust to where the game is currently. Not that there is a pressing need, just that the space is there. 

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I know what I would like to see on Shark instead of Stagger.

On my mark. It would open up some interesting options with the Fish's odd movent tricks.

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My biggest hope is a Corsair rework. My concern is that they're just going to nerf the current version of Corsair, who never felt much like a Fish to me. For me, the ideal Corsair design would take away all his momentous damage and add some momentous pushes. Maybe a Tackle double push on three or four success or something like that. So he keeps his damage values where they are for the most part but momentum is redistributed. Then you expand his playbook by one so he's not wrapping as consistently.

Add a double guild ball result that triggers Rough Seas, take away Close Control, and change Stand Firm to a play that hands out Close Control at 6 or 8 inches. The idea is that Corsair is a tar pit who specializes at recovering the ball and repositioning enemy models away from his ball carriers while still giving him the ability to set up a couple of take outs more easily than Shark. Possible add a Character Trait that allows models receiving a pass from him to dodge for free.

I want the Fish to be a primarily 3/0 guild top to bottom personally. I think this can be done without overlapping Shark and Corsair too much by maintaining Corsair's overall approach of dragging people to him while Shark goes off and chases the other team. So Corsair becomes a football support captain while Shark is still an active goal scorer himself.

Also hoping to see Salt brought up in line with Frelsi and Pride as a more active, influence-dependent mascot. I love the otter and she has had a lot of game-changing plays, but I'd like to see mascots in general brought up and hope the Fish (Tentacles included) see a similar change.

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23 minutes ago, Penguin Warrior said:

Add a double guild ball result that triggers Rough Seas, take away Close Control, and change Stand Firm to a play that hands out Close Control at 6 or 8 inches. The idea is that Corsair is a tar pit who specializes at recovering the ball and repositioning enemy models away from his ball carriers while still giving him the ability to set up a couple of take outs more easily than Shark. Possible add a Character Trait that allows models receiving a pass from him to dodge for free.

If there are no ok to decent momentous damage dealers available to the guild then there is little point in having the capacity to setup take outs as you need to be able to generate momentum constantly and reliably to be able to win.

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6 hours ago, Banjulhu said:

If there are no ok to decent momentous damage dealers available to the guild then there is little point in having the capacity to setup take outs as you need to be able to generate momentum constantly and reliably to be able to win.

I'm saying I don't think Fish should have that as a consistent option. I want them to be 3/0 focused, as that would be fairly unique as the other football guilds tend to have more flexibility to play a take out game. Focus on ball recovery, speed, and goals. And the fish will almost always have the option to fight a little bit since having this kind of access to reach means you'll be able to set up traps (especially with Drag) to pick up a take out or two.

This is my personal wishlist, not necessarily what I think will or should happen :P

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Take my comments with a grain of otter as I own Fishermen, but haven't played them yet, so I see them from an opponent's point of view.

- I'd like to see Drag become a OPT character play to make Stoic a more relevant rule and because Drag is pretty fantastic 

- Give Fishermen something to discourage the opponent from dropping the ball as a protection against character plays

-Tweak a few Squaddies here and there, but Captain- and Mascot wise, Fishermen are in a good spot IMO

- Incorporate Snared as a typical Fishermen condition

 

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Snared is unlikely to ever become a thing for the Fish.

Gut and String was removed from Shark in part to stop the one of the, if not the, fastest teams in the game from being able to repeatedly debuff movement and then run away.

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1 hour ago, Banjulhu said:

Snared is unlikely to ever become a thing for the Fish.

Gut and String was removed from Shark in part to stop the one of the, if not the, fastest teams in the game from being able to repeatedly debuff movement and then run away.

This ^^

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I only see that being a problem in combination with Shark's Legendary... which could just as well be changed to apply Snared as would be fittinig for its name. :D

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3 hours ago, Banjulhu said:

Snared is unlikely to ever become a thing for the Fish.

Gut and String was removed from Shark in part to stop the one of the, if not the, fastest teams in the game from being able to repeatedly debuff movement and then run away.

IMO Snared and Gut and String do not even live on the same planet as each other. I'm not sure it would be innately broken, and definitely feels in theme. Not every guild gets a access to a condition but if Fish were to get one, snared seems like the obvious choice. 

 

1 hour ago, Ruffy said:

I only see that being a problem in combination with Shark's Legendary... which could just as well be changed to apply Snared as would be fittinig for its name. :D

If his legendary dropped from -4/-4 to just snared I would be pretty bummed. If there was some other component to it as well that could be fun though.  

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8 minutes ago, Frankanelli said:

If his legendary dropped from -4/-4 to just snared I would be pretty bummed. If there was some other component to it as well that could be fun though.  

Like they can only move towards him? :)

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Given how close to the new season vSakana's and the Navigators' Guild is going to be we may be able to glean a little of what the Fishermen are going to look like after the update.

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My general hope for Fish in season 4.

This is for all guilds, like the minors, I would like to see some sort of mechanic that is guild specific for all teams. Maybe it's allowing Fish to pass as soon as they tackle, etc. , just something to create a real identity to the guild.

4s' on the kick stat instead of all the 3s'. For being the guild known for being more football orientated, they kick about as good as most guilds. Engineers are far better passers and scorers with the 4s' throughout the whole guild. I would think Fish would have the kick stat of 4/6 as the norm. 

Tackles on 2s' needs to go away. Yes Fish with 2' is a thing, and crowd outs can happen if the you put the emphasis into it. The problem then becomes the Fish are bunched up for takeouts.  Also most teams keep the ball away by having a model hide on a far flank or in a position away from the scrum. This means a Fish player is going to need to have above average dice verse ball killers to retrieve the ball back with the tackle ability. When the ball killer has close control or gluttonous it becomes even further frustrating to get the ball. Fish really need a non momentous tackle on one or in some cases a momentous tackle on one. This makes it more reliable even verse ball killers to be able to even get the ball back into play.

Angel, just give her 2" melee zone, she has a trident, and everyone else has it, what the hell.

Kraken, first make him a 3/1 with tough hide. His influence can stay the same but give him counter charge, or furious.

That's my big changes. 

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I know, let's not worry about the above changes and just let the fish start 1-0 up. Also if that doesn't go far enough then let's say that the fish get the ball at the start of every turn. That way we don't have to worry about tackling it at all. ;)

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12 hours ago, LouisvillePitch said:

My general hope for Fish in season 4.

This is for all guilds, like the minors, I would like to see some sort of mechanic that is guild specific for all teams. Maybe it's allowing Fish to pass as soon as they tackle, etc. , just something to create a real identity to the guild.

4s' on the kick stat instead of all the 3s'. For being the guild known for being more football orientated, they kick about as good as most guilds. Engineers are far better passers and scorers with the 4s' throughout the whole guild. I would think Fish would have the kick stat of 4/6 as the norm. 

Tackles on 2s' needs to go away. Yes Fish with 2' is a thing, and crowd outs can happen if the you put the emphasis into it. The problem then becomes the Fish are bunched up for takeouts.  Also most teams keep the ball away by having a model hide on a far flank or in a position away from the scrum. This means a Fish player is going to need to have above average dice verse ball killers to retrieve the ball back with the tackle ability. When the ball killer has close control or gluttonous it becomes even further frustrating to get the ball. Fish really need a non momentous tackle on one or in some cases a momentous tackle on one. This makes it more reliable even verse ball killers to be able to even get the ball back into play.

Angel, just give her 2" melee zone, she has a trident, and everyone else has it, what the hell.

Kraken, first make him a 3/1 with tough hide. His influence can stay the same but give him counter charge, or furious.

That's my big changes. 

I'm glad you not part of the Game Balance at SFG lol 

Every Guild has an Internal balance and these are crazy OP.

I hope every Guild gets a Guild Identity and I will hopefully see the Fishermen's at the Playtest Event I'm attending on the 30th 🙂

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So it looks like one big change of note coming in season 4 is the tap in rules.

The target number is reduced by 1 if any kick target is at less than half the kick range of the kicker.

This is probably going to be a bit niche for Fish in most cases as the team tends to spread out when passing but certainly it can help with reliabe mp generation in the early parts of the game.

However, it does nerf Salt as one of the Fish's goal scoring pieces if her stats remain the same so hopefully she may get a boost to 3/4".

 

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