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Why the current painting restrictions are stupid

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Okay, so I told myself I wasn't going to drag out and start flogging this horse again, however in light of the most recent announcement that coloured resin "Legacy" teams do not require painting to be used in tournaments under the OPD has me increasingly annoyed.

First of all let me start by saying that in my opinion painting miniatures is part of tabletop hobby war gaming and should be enforced in any "high level" tournament play. I understand  that some people claim they don't have time, patience or ability to paint 8-10 miniatures and know that some people will accuse me of being "elitist" or "gate keeping" because of that opinion and that is fine, people are entitled to their own opinions.

I also understand that SFG are becoming more lenient with painting requirement to promote the "pick up and play" nature of the pre-assembled PVC teams and minor guilds and while I could probably rant on for hours about this decision, that is not my main concern or objective of this post. In short:...

METAL REQUIRES PAINTING, COLOURED PVC & RESIN DOES NOT..!!?!?!?!?!???!!!!

I don't understand why this is a thing, either have painting restrictions or don't have them, this half arsed approach is just stupid..

Currently as it stands, a player can purchase the Ratcatchers Minor Guild Box and both "Legacy" Morticians bundles and field any combination of 8-10 players without requiring any paint... Unless they want to use vHemlock, then she needs painting.... or the Halloween LE Obulus and Dirge which are currently on sale, they would also require painting... or the alt sculpt "prizes" from the Ratcatches launch event, yep, metal, need paint...

Same goes for the Hunters/Falconers with vMinx, Young Theron and the alt sculpts from the Falconers launch event when they are released.. Also the LE sculpts of Bolt, Millstone and Piper that came as a pre-order bonus..

The point I am attempting to get across is that while partially lifting the painting requirements is s'posed to allow newer players to enter tournaments right from the start, it actually puts some weird jank on the players they are able to include in their roster..

What if they purchased Kickoff and want to play either of those guilds.? As only 6 players are available in PVC they will need to purchase and paint at least another four minis to participate in tournaments.. What about Lucky.? He's coloured PVC, he also doesn't fit in with the colour scheme of either guild..

What if they look at the miniature range or artwork and are really inspired by one of the original Major guilds but have no idea where or how to start painting miniatures.? Guess they are shit out of luck, Blacksmiths, Farmers or Morticians for you...

Honestly I don't see the difference between using unpainted pre-coloured miniatures and getting a metal team, and spraying them the same colour and calling it a day..

End of the day, while I personally feel like painting requirements should stay intact for the benefit of visually promoting the game, if SFG want to remove the painting aspect of the hobby they should just do it wholesale, none of this half and half BS...

Anyway, that's me done for now, hope no-one was too offended by any of the points I raised and I hope it can get some "friendly" banter going around this..

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I think painted is better but I also understand why they'd choose not to enforce it. I think the lack of consistency is a problem though. I think if they're going to allow unpainted PVC or Resin then sprayed metal should also be acceptable. It's far too arbitrary right now. Especially since as the rules stand you could take a box of PVC farmers and spray them grey and that would be allowable but if you took a box of Fishermen, assembled them, and sprayed them grey that wouldn't be allowed. Even though in terms of painted/not-painted they're in the exact same state.

It's just silly.

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I hate painting as im rubbish and never have the time as im also really slow and much better at the game so prefer to actually play....that said, im actually in agreement here. 

I think there should be a painting requirement the only exception being for models released at that event. Ie ratcatchers on release day or exiles for vengeance. 

 

This for me also translates into an issue when streaming competative games. Imagine 2 morts playing and both unpainted plastics.

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The way most 40k tournaments in NSW Australia work at the moment is that you can use unpainted models if you want, but to be eligible for any prizes (sometimes also Rankings points) you have to have a fully painted army.

I’d be perfectly happy with a similar approach at Guild Ball events. It doesn’t stop new players playing, and generally ensures the top tables are a visually appealing affair.

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We do seem to be in a weird transition period for the game, and I agree the rules are inconsistent at the miniyte.

Don't forget that painting rules have always been at the TOs discretion. I frequent the Heroics and they chose not to allow unpainted plastics,  and ask for a charity donation to play any  pre-release models you may happen to have. Which was what they did before the current OPD anyway. 

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On 5/4/2018 at 9:03 PM, Rejusu said:

... as the rules stand you could take a box of PVC farmers and spray them grey and that would be allowable but if you took a box of Fishermen, assembled them, and sprayed them grey that wouldn't be allowed. Even though in terms of painted/not-painted they're in the exact same state.

What in the rules says that a metal team painted that way isn't allowed?

"Metal models must be completely painted and based. This means that every metal model, including its base, must be painted with an acceptable variety of colour and shading."

To me, that sounds like whatever you feel like allowing is precisely what's allowed.

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2 hours ago, RedSam said:

This means that every metal model, including its base, must be painted with an acceptable variety of colour and shading."

Yup, here it says right there grey primer only is a basis for TO to disallow your metal minis from play. 

Imma just call it as it is. Current painting regulations in the OPD are BULLSHIT. Either demand painted minis or don't. You cant have it both ways. If they played Witcher 3 they'd understand how having it both ways work. 

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I’m not a fan of painting, I’m not good at it and I don’t enjoy it. I also understand why the restriction is there and I do think games with painted models do look much nicer, especially if you intend to stream the event.

I agree it should be completely painted or not though.

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On 5.5.2018 at 8:35 AM, Stephen78 said:

I think there should be a painting requirement the only exception being for models released at that event. Ie ratcatchers on release day or exiles for vengeance. 

This is what I like.

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I love the painting and the crafting side of things... I'm still just learning but it is extremely enjoyable... to me.

Having said that, as a TO I would rather have 24 players rolling dice, laughing, and learning and having a grand old time...with unpainted/semi-painted models... than 8 players with the most beautifuly creations ever crafted by man.

I truly believe Growing the Game > Growing the Hobby. Get them in, get them hooked... then gift them a paintbrush and offer advice and help if they would like.... but at the end of the day... I just want to PLAY!

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3 hours ago, Malritch said:

Having said that, as a TO I would rather have 24 players rolling dice, laughing, and learning and having a grand old time...with unpainted/semi-painted models... than 8 players with the most beautifuly creations ever crafted by man.

I understand that point of the "remove painting restrictions" argument, however I feel that an eight man tournament with beautifully painted miniatures is more likely to attract interest in the game whether it be at an event, lgs or streamed on the Internet..

Also, as a TO, (and I know painting restrictions are at your discretion anyway) would you not preffer 24 players using unpainted / semipainted miniatures from guilds they like rather than being restricted to guilds available in resin and pvc.?

My main issue is that if someone chooses to play unpainted they are currently limited to:

Brewers : 6 man kickoff set

Blacksmiths : minus LE Bolt or vCinder (when released) 

Farmers : minus LE Millstone and vHonor

Masons : 6 man kickoff set

Morticians : minus vHemlock and any LE or classic (metal) sculpts

Ratcatchers : minus any LE or classic sculpts

End of the day, while I don't like watering down the "hobby" aspect of hobby wargaming, it's something I can accept with the option to be "Elitist" about it.. However if they are going to lift painting restrictions it should be for every miniature in the range to allow players to pick and choose any guild they like..

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4 hours ago, Malritch said:

I love the painting and the crafting side of things... I'm still just learning but it is extremely enjoyable... to me.

Having said that, as a TO I would rather have 24 players rolling dice, laughing, and learning and having a grand old time...with unpainted/semi-painted models... than 8 players with the most beautifuly creations ever crafted by man.

I truly believe Growing the Game > Growing the Hobby. Get them in, get them hooked... then gift them a paintbrush and offer advice and help if they would like.... but at the end of the day... I just want to PLAY!

Exactly this.

My Ratcatchers might arrive next week. Highly unlikely they will be painted in time for a big tournament I am going to. And I don't care. I'd rather play than paint any day. If you wanna paint great go ahead if you don't then don't. To each their own. Painting shouldn't be required at all. Just have rewards for those that do choose to. I hate the forcing part of some other systems rules. 

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I enjoy painting my minis, but that is my hobby. People get into wargaming for different reasons and I believe in it growing more than forcing people to paint up stuff.

Sure it looks amazing when you've got two fully painted team going at it on the pitch.

The more people enjoying the hobby the better it will become.

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3 hours ago, Toqtamish said:

I'd rather play than paint any day. If you wanna paint great go ahead if you don't then don't. To each their own. Painting shouldn't be required at all. 

 

1 hour ago, Jynxed85 said:

I enjoy painting my minis, but that is my hobby. People get into wargaming for different reasons and I believe in it growing more than forcing people to paint up stuff.

 

Again, just to confirm, this topic wasn't created to debate whether or not painting should be required or not. That debate has been ran into the ground and it's unlikely the community will ever agree one way or another..

What I am trying to say is that either everything should be painted, or there should be no restriction regardless of the material of the miniature..

I understand this won't be an issue in a couple of years time once all the minor guilds are released and all the major guilds are in coloured resin, however at this point it is severely restrictive on which guilds players can choose if they choose to play unpainted..

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I really enjoy the painting aspect of the hobby. I even have had copious amounts of time to paint at different stages of my life. And I appreciate looking at teams where their owner has taken the time to make them their own. I don't expect to see everything painted to a high standard or anything of the sort, just some personal touch. And that is what I think the end goal of the painting "requirements" should be.

The plastics/resin being getting waived for the requirements seems bogus to me, but not because I want to look down my nose on players who don't paint. It's because I believe it should be the same standard across the board. If you pick up ANY models the day of the event and want to play with it, it should be allowed regardless of what the model is made out of. It isn't the player's fault that the only Boar or Chaska option is metal. Maybe Harry the Hat is one of the hardest to find models and the tournament venue is the first place you've managed to find him. Any model bought at the venue should be waived for playing. If this is already how places run it, kudos to them.

I do however like having some set standard for painting with stuff you've brought for home for two reason. One is differentiation, being able to tell two player's models apart. Saying that the dyed resin or plastic is enough is woefully wrong. Just go to a release even for any guild. At our Blacksmith release I gazed upon a gaggle of grey engaging another gaggle grey. I don't even think a requirement needs to be out there to a 3-color minimum. Just prime it and base coat it and maybe add a splash of color purely for the purpose of telling models apart in the event of a mirror match.

There is also a commercial aspect to making people bring painted minis. It helps to draw in spectators who become our future players. We want more people to play in order to keep the game alive. Making pretty and shiny stuff helps to grab their attention. So instead of making a requirement to paint, maybe offer incentives, beyond a "best painted" which I never anticipate winning. The Kickabout campaign came with a bunch of Lucky's. Maybe future OPD kits could come with a few LE models just for those who take the time to paint to a minimal level of completion. I know it isn't realistic to think that the models wouldn't leak out to everyone, but it would still be good to put it into people's heads that painting comes with rewards.

In short, I would like to see the same standard and rules applied across the board regardless of material. I do want to see personalization, but I don't care for elitism. If you say it's good enough with primer white bodies and purple heads, then it's good enough for me. However I would love to see some reward for those who make an effort to try and make their tabletop gaming cool to look at.

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What priesmal said.
As a To if you have a recurring player who keeps bringing unpainted models use the evil eye
 

Just don't bash new players with it!

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I agree it causes some confusion and they need to make a decision. Though I feel with how the company is progressing toward the painting requirement is going to go out the window. Now I feel that if they go that route they need to make some events or awards that create a desire to get things painted up.

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On 5/8/2018 at 4:11 AM, Varred said:

If they played Witcher 3 they'd understand how having it both ways work. 

the sentence of the year, lmao.

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On 5/8/2018 at 5:11 AM, Varred said:

Yup, here it says right there grey primer only is a basis for TO to disallow your metal minis from play. 

 

On 5/8/2018 at 2:24 AM, RedSam said:

"Metal models must be completely painted and based. This means that every metal model, including its base, must be painted with an acceptable variety of colour and shading."

To me, that sounds like whatever you feel like allowing is precisely what's allowed.

As an infrequent TO the rule in question says "acceptable" there is no quantified amount of painting or shading. I could allow team that had paint sprayed with plastidip vaguely in it's direction if I find that acceptable. I could also bar anything less than a golden demon or whatever that crap is because it's simply unacceptable to me. The only requirements are that there is visible paint on the base and model, and the TO thinks it's enough

Personally I align with the plastidip side but the OPD is down to the whims of the individual TO currently, for better or worse.

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On 08/05/2018 at 3:24 PM, RedSam said:

What in the rules says that a metal team painted that way isn't allowed?

"Metal models must be completely painted and based. This means that every metal model, including its base, must be painted with an acceptable variety of colour and shading."

To me, that sounds like whatever you feel like allowing is precisely what's allowed.

It says it right there in the bit you quoted. A single coat of grey primer is not a variety of colour by any definition, it's one colour. And it adds zero shading. The document isn't specific in what constitutes an acceptable variety so after that point it's entirely subjective and up to TO discretion. But it does define a minimum standard which a coat of grey primer fails to meet. What's ridiculous though is unpainted resins or plastics are allowed despite also falling below that minimum standard.

And yeah this isn't a debate about whether painted or unpainted models should be required. It's an argument that requirements for painting should be consistent for all materials.

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5 hours ago, Ik-tornado said:

 

As an infrequent TO the rule in question says "acceptable" there is no quantified amount of painting or shading. I could allow team that had paint sprayed with plastidip vaguely in it's direction if I find that acceptable. I could also bar anything less than a golden demon or whatever that crap is because it's simply unacceptable to me. The only requirements are that there is visible paint on the base and model, and the TO thinks it's enough

Personally I align with the plastidip side but the OPD is down to the whims of the individual TO currently, for better or worse.

If You look at it like that then all is good. But only thanks to You as the TO. In my community we do not require painting at all cause all think the regulations are a big stinky pile of BS. However, as has been said, grey primer is not a variety of colours and shading any way i look at it. Of You want to stricte adhere to the OPD You should disallow grey primed models. It's not about paint visible on the base and the mini. 

Anyhow, this is not about weather painted requirement is good or not and neither is the discusson about what a single OT allows or not. Believe me i know people that wouldnt allows primed only minis just because the rules say so (thanks the Allfather they dont play our game). If i was organizing an event and someone would come with minis cover so thickly in paint all details and shapes would be unrecocnisable i wouldn't allows him to play those minis, as i believe this game requires it's minis to be recognisable on a whim. 

The discussion itself is about the SFG trying to sit atop the palisade and not taking one side or another. It's bad and shuold be call out. 

 

Cheers

Varred

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It never said that to be an acceptable variety that variety must be >1. The word variety doesn't even imply that there must be >1. I have a single variety of color on my model, I have a single variety of apples, I won't buy another car of the German variety. All paint rules unless quantified are immediately trash because of how art and things like above work. There will always be a loophole because of how subjective painting is. 

 

I know what the topic is about. I'm just taking it all the way. All painting rules don't belong in a tight ruleset.

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7 hours ago, Ik-tornado said:

It never said that to be an acceptable variety that variety must be >1. The word variety doesn't even imply that there must be >1. I have a single variety of color on my model, I have a single variety of apples, I won't buy another car of the German variety. All paint rules unless quantified are immediately trash because of how art and things like above work. There will always be a loophole because of how subjective painting is.

 

I know what the topic is about. I'm just taking it all the way. All painting rules don't belong in a tight ruleset.

Was just going to say this, so thanks. "Variety" can be zero and still be deemed acceptable.

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11 hours ago, Ik-tornado said:

It never said that to be an acceptable variety that variety must be >1. The word variety doesn't even imply that there must be >1. I have a single variety of color on my model, I have a single variety of apples, I won't buy another car of the German variety. All paint rules unless quantified are immediately trash because of how art and things like above work. There will always be a loophole because of how subjective painting is. 

 

I know what the topic is about. I'm just taking it all the way. All painting rules don't belong in a tight ruleset.

 

4 hours ago, RedSam said:

Was just going to say this, so thanks. "Variety" can be zero and still be deemed acceptable.

Incorrect. The word as it's used in the context of the OPD is defined thusly:

NOUN
1mass noun The quality or state of being different or diverse; the absence of uniformity or monotony.

‘it's the variety that makes my job so enjoyable’

1.1a variety of A number or range of things of the same general class that are distinct in character or quality.

But if you want to play at semantics to avoid admitting that you're wrong go ahead. The paragraph in the OPD is clear in what it implies, note not just the part about variety but also the part about it being "completely" painted and based. You have to deliberately missread it to arrive at the conclusion that it means what you claim.

And let's consider the hypothetical possibility that you are right. Even then the painting restrictions would be a problem because they aren't clear about what the minimum standard is.

But either way ask anyone who isn't trying to purposefully find an ulterior meaning in that paragraph whether they think a plain grey model would be allowed under those rules and they'd tell you no.

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