Jump to content
Amalgam

V. Honour is Stronger Than You Think

Recommended Posts

Hi Guys! New to the Forum Here!

The Exile-Release of the Union has been, in my opinion, one of the best set of releases since I got into the game.

I've enjoyed theorycrafting how I'd play (or counter) all of the different models, in particular vDecimate and vHonour (i.e. as I play Brewers and Farmers). And through proxying each of the models, I've playing with or against them to get both a feel as to how they play, and how they could potentially fit in a competitive 10-man line-up. After I play a few games to get my initial impressions, I refer to this forum to gain a second opinion, which is usually quite enlightening to say the least....

However, I was disappointed to find that the only discussions that I found about vHonour were on how to improve her, rather than how to utilise her properly as a unit. So, I decided to get the ball-rolling myself and share my own opinions, (feel free to debunk my points if you want).

  1. vHonour Synergies - As a Farmer Player, It's important for the team to synergize well together, everyone has to be tightly-packed to take    advantage of harvest markers. In fact, this point is emphasised even more due to the recent errata, which somewhat-limited how much influence you could gain from the strategy without hurting other battle-plans. Unfortunately, this is a severe problem, as many farmers, in particular, the reapers, require a lot of influence to do their jobs effectively. vHonour is an influence-battery, providing more immediate-influence than Millstone, without requiring much influence to work herself. In addition, she synergizes well with those that usually stick to the back-lines, in particular: with the Ploughman! By using her abilities to remove, and place harvest markers, she effectively doubles the value you'd usually get from him - this only intensifies as you add a third planter. In my games, using her with Ploughman meant that I always had at least three markers to share around. That's not all though! She can be used with Jackstraw to set up his movement, to move Harrow's harvest markers if he produces them through his attacks, or to set-up basically any Reaper for a power-up at the end of a turn.
  2. Bringing Back the Thresher - Although I agree that Thresher was originally too-good, I, for one thought that the nerfs from Steamforged were a tad much. But, I'd like to to think that they'd had considered vHonour in this decision as well - and it's just what was needed to bring the Old Father back into the limelight. In my opinion, Thresher wasn't viable due to a lack of influence his team's usual line-up had, at an unhealthy 11 (and that's without the Donkey). However, vHonour solves all of those problems, ensuring that plenty of harvest markers are available where they're needed, whilst not eating up many herself. I had much success with the following line-up: Thresher, Buckwheat  (On a Thresher Team?! Don't click away, it's Legit), Tater, Jackstraw, Ploughman, and of course, vHonour. That's 12 Influence! I also found that comboing both legendaries would just lead to a horrible, horrible turn for the opposition: I killed Anvil and Sledge in a Singular Turn!
  3. Grange's Mauling Tractor of Doom - My favourite strategy: including Grange, Peck, Windle, Fallow, Ploughman, and vHonour. Only 11 Influence. But comboing both legendaries, will again, cause inevitable death and destruction, by maxing out the influence of nearly all of your players. Apart from that, it's all about planting to gain an advantage in the following turn, so you can max out Grange, Fallow & Windle with Influence.

Anyways, I's like to thank you for reading of those of you that got this far. What are your thoughts of vHonour; Do you agree with me? Or is Millstone just better? Let the arguments begin! :) 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Spoke about her today, I would take her in alot match ups I feel I don't need Tooled up. 3 influence and the ability to redploy harvest markers is fantastic.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Agreed,  she made it pretty trivial to keep markers safe and where I needed then. Ploughman also added a lot of value, which he never has before.

I'm not sure I can fit them in my 10 but I'll def return to them in friendlies to explore further. 

I did come away with a question though... Ploughman had 2 Furrows out, and with a HM in each if them,  Honour had chance to Fields of Wheat into both of them. Would I have ended up with 4 markers or 3 at the end of that?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, CurlyPaul said:

Agreed,  she made it pretty trivial to keep markers safe and where I needed then. Ploughman also added a lot of value, which he never has before.

I'm not sure I can fit them in my 10 but I'll def return to them in friendlies to explore further. 

I did come away with a question though... Ploughman had 2 Furrows out, and with a HM in each if them,  Honour had chance to Fields of Wheat into both of them. Would I have ended up with 4 markers or 3 at the end of that?

I'd say 4 markers - Furrow adds an additional marker when one is placed inside by a singular ability, regardless of how many you put in. With 2 AOE's, you'd place one in each to generate one from both, so it seems legit to me.

i wouldn't say that it's a design oversight though, as having two influence (at a minimum) on Ploughman could draw from resources for the rest of the team. Perhaps useful on earlier turns? Or through generating multiple furrows on a hard-hitting attack, like a charge?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, CurlyPaul said:

I did come away with a question though... Ploughman had 2 Furrows out, and with a HM in each if them,  Honour had chance to Fields of Wheat into both of them. Would I have ended up with 4 markers or 3 at the end of that?

3. You only get +1 per play or trait that creates them.

Here's the similar question from the questions board. Crop Dusting and Fields of Wheat are treated the same way.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Amalgam said:

I'd say 4 markers - Furrow adds an additional marker when one is placed inside by a singular ability, regardless of how many you put in. With 2 AOE's, you'd place one in each to generate one from both, so it seems legit to me.

You'd only be able to place 3 HMs (see above). 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hey,

I've had a couple of games with her recently and i'm not going to lie that she's pretty lacklustre. Yeah she's pretty great and moving HM's around and provides that extra influence that you may need for a turn but her TAC is awful & her playbook results aren't that great. Her threat range is pretty bad aswell. 

So i'm not 100% sold on her at the moment to even be in my 10 but i'm going to keep on trying her. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Counter Point: Honour is exactly as bad as everyone thinks.

TLDR: Low Threat, Low Tac, Inefficient Harvest markers, Tater Millstone and Harrow are too good to leave behind. 

 

Before we get into why I don't like her lets talk about the good things she brings. Momentous 1 damage double push on 2 is super unique in farmers and crazy strong under honest labor. The ability to reuse harvest markers can be helpful if you are outpacing the ones you have placed. The ability to allocate extra influence mid turn can be very strong.

I've put Honour on the table 4 times now and I will go over the reasons that she doesn't make any of my six's much less my ten.

1. The "farmers problem." Due to the unique way that farmers influence works we are severely limited in how we construct lists. In my opinion there are only 4 competitive farmers lists and I know that my number is a bit on the high side when you compare it to other competitive players. 

Thresher, Peck, Harrow, Millstone, Tater, Jack Straw Inf:12

Thresher, Peck, Harrow, Millstone, Tater, Grace Inf: 10

Grange, Peck, Harrow, Millstone, Tater, Fallow Inf: 11

Grange, Peck, Harrow, Millstone, Tater, Ploughman Inf: 13

These are the shells that the farmers play because most of their strength comes from the overlapping synergies that Tater, Millstone, and Harrow bring. To get her in we need to play her in the last squaddie slot. So lists with her look like this:

Thresher, Peck, Harrow, Millstone, Tater, vHonour Inf:12

Grange, Peck, Harrow, Millstone, Tater, vHonour Inf: 14

The thresher list is a straight downgrade in terms of the amounts of markers you can place. She is similar in many ways to Jack Straw when placing harvest markers in that she buys them with influence at the same rate, but straw can throw his much farther and can deal damage. He is also much much harder to kill.

The Grange list is where she is most exciting. Unfortunately Ploughman out classes her in nearly every way. He threats 2" farther his harvest marker gimmick is more efficient than hers, and he is harder to kill. But the biggest thing is the reason these two are good in grange is so they can push people back into honest labor after grange has activated. With only tac 4 Honour will struggle with this job and if she misses it she does one damage while Ploughman gets momentum and his AOE.

2. Her legendary is not as good as it seems. If we look at the teams that Honour plays in and you try to imagine a typical allocation you will find yourself in situations where the legendary ranges from sub par to useless. Take the thresher team as an example.

Thresher:5  Tater: 4  Harrow: 1  Honour: 1 Peck: 1 Millstone: 0

I will find it very unlikely that you have the activation to spare on her legendary before Thresher, Tater, and Harrow have activated. This means the best you can do is place 3 on millstone and 1 on peck. This also assumes that you didn't pick up any extra markers or gain any influence off of cards or goals. Wouldn't this be better spent on your reapers next turn? Too often I found that her legendary was use crofting for free this turn.

I'll cover a few points that were brought up by others in the thread. 

On 4/28/2018 at 1:24 PM, Amalgam said:
  1. vHonour Synergies - As a Farmer Player, It's important for the team to synergize well together, everyone has to be tightly-packed to take    advantage of harvest markers. In fact, this point is emphasised even more due to the recent errata, which somewhat-limited how much influence you could gain from the strategy without hurting other battle-plans. Unfortunately, this is a severe problem, as many farmers, in particular, the reapers, require a lot of influence to do their jobs effectively. vHonour is an influence-battery, providing more immediate-influence than Millstone, without requiring much influence to work herself. In addition, she synergizes well with those that usually stick to the back-lines, in particular: with the Ploughman! By using her abilities to remove, and place harvest markers, she effectively doubles the value you'd usually get from him - this only intensifies as you add a third planter. In my games, using her with Ploughman meant that I always had at least three markers to share around. That's not all though! She can be used with Jackstraw to set up his movement, to move Harrow's harvest markers if he produces them through his attacks, or to set-up basically any Reaper for a power-up at the end of a turn.

Her synergy with Ploughman is is kind of a moot point since you need to leave behind one of your best players to to run both of them. Even if we assume that running both is a good idea you spent 2 influence for 3 harvest markers. Ploughman can be brought with the planters that drop them for free and that is just more efficient.

 

On 4/28/2018 at 1:24 PM, Amalgam said:
  1. Bringing Back the Thresher - Although I agree that Thresher was originally too-good, I, for one thought that the nerfs from Steamforged were a tad much. But, I'd like to to think that they'd had considered vHonour in this decision as well - and it's just what was needed to bring the Old Father back into the limelight. In my opinion, Thresher wasn't viable due to a lack of influence his team's usual line-up had, at an unhealthy 11 (and that's without the Donkey). However, vHonour solves all of those problems, ensuring that plenty of harvest markers are available where they're needed, whilst not eating up many herself. I had much success with the following line-up: Thresher, Buckwheat  (On a Thresher Team?! Don't click away, it's Legit), Tater, Jackstraw, Ploughman, and of course, vHonour. That's 12 Influence! I also found that comboing both legendaries would just lead to a horrible, horrible turn for the opposition: I killed Anvil and Sledge in a Singular Turn!

 A thresher list with no tooled up and no way to protect him from being knocked down on turn one? Pass.

On 4/28/2018 at 1:24 PM, Amalgam said:
  1. Grange's Mauling Tractor of Doom - My favourite strategy: including Grange, Peck, Windle, Fallow, Ploughman, and vHonour. Only 11 Influence. But comboing both legendaries, will again, cause inevitable death and destruction, by maxing out the influence of nearly all of your players. Apart from that, it's all about planting to gain an advantage in the following turn, so you can max out Grange, Fallow & Windle with Influence.

This team drops 2 harvest markers a turn before grange legendary and Ploughman. If we assume you are going to drop both in Ploughman AOEs you can't activate grange first. That seems dangerous. You have only 2 things keeping your list safe (Fallow and Constitution) and one of them isn't online until after Grange's activation. Also this list wants to eat 3 harvest markers a turn. 

Ultimately I think the best way to look Honour in farmers is as training wheels. She can help you not fall down with your harvest marker placement, but not including her will allow you to ride that bike much better. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


×