Jump to content
Amalgam

V. Honour is Stronger Than You Think

Recommended Posts

Hi Guys! New to the Forum Here!

The Exile-Release of the Union has been, in my opinion, one of the best set of releases since I got into the game.

I've enjoyed theorycrafting how I'd play (or counter) all of the different models, in particular vDecimate and vHonour (i.e. as I play Brewers and Farmers). And through proxying each of the models, I've playing with or against them to get both a feel as to how they play, and how they could potentially fit in a competitive 10-man line-up. After I play a few games to get my initial impressions, I refer to this forum to gain a second opinion, which is usually quite enlightening to say the least....

However, I was disappointed to find that the only discussions that I found about vHonour were on how to improve her, rather than how to utilise her properly as a unit. So, I decided to get the ball-rolling myself and share my own opinions, (feel free to debunk my points if you want).

  1. vHonour Synergies - As a Farmer Player, It's important for the team to synergize well together, everyone has to be tightly-packed to take    advantage of harvest markers. In fact, this point is emphasised even more due to the recent errata, which somewhat-limited how much influence you could gain from the strategy without hurting other battle-plans. Unfortunately, this is a severe problem, as many farmers, in particular, the reapers, require a lot of influence to do their jobs effectively. vHonour is an influence-battery, providing more immediate-influence than Millstone, without requiring much influence to work herself. In addition, she synergizes well with those that usually stick to the back-lines, in particular: with the Ploughman! By using her abilities to remove, and place harvest markers, she effectively doubles the value you'd usually get from him - this only intensifies as you add a third planter. In my games, using her with Ploughman meant that I always had at least three markers to share around. That's not all though! She can be used with Jackstraw to set up his movement, to move Harrow's harvest markers if he produces them through his attacks, or to set-up basically any Reaper for a power-up at the end of a turn.
  2. Bringing Back the Thresher - Although I agree that Thresher was originally too-good, I, for one thought that the nerfs from Steamforged were a tad much. But, I'd like to to think that they'd had considered vHonour in this decision as well - and it's just what was needed to bring the Old Father back into the limelight. In my opinion, Thresher wasn't viable due to a lack of influence his team's usual line-up had, at an unhealthy 11 (and that's without the Donkey). However, vHonour solves all of those problems, ensuring that plenty of harvest markers are available where they're needed, whilst not eating up many herself. I had much success with the following line-up: Thresher, Buckwheat  (On a Thresher Team?! Don't click away, it's Legit), Tater, Jackstraw, Ploughman, and of course, vHonour. That's 12 Influence! I also found that comboing both legendaries would just lead to a horrible, horrible turn for the opposition: I killed Anvil and Sledge in a Singular Turn!
  3. Grange's Mauling Tractor of Doom - My favourite strategy: including Grange, Peck, Windle, Fallow, Ploughman, and vHonour. Only 11 Influence. But comboing both legendaries, will again, cause inevitable death and destruction, by maxing out the influence of nearly all of your players. Apart from that, it's all about planting to gain an advantage in the following turn, so you can max out Grange, Fallow & Windle with Influence.

Anyways, I's like to thank you for reading of those of you that got this far. What are your thoughts of vHonour; Do you agree with me? Or is Millstone just better? Let the arguments begin! :) 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Agreed,  she made it pretty trivial to keep markers safe and where I needed then. Ploughman also added a lot of value, which he never has before.

I'm not sure I can fit them in my 10 but I'll def return to them in friendlies to explore further. 

I did come away with a question though... Ploughman had 2 Furrows out, and with a HM in each if them,  Honour had chance to Fields of Wheat into both of them. Would I have ended up with 4 markers or 3 at the end of that?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, CurlyPaul said:

Agreed,  she made it pretty trivial to keep markers safe and where I needed then. Ploughman also added a lot of value, which he never has before.

I'm not sure I can fit them in my 10 but I'll def return to them in friendlies to explore further. 

I did come away with a question though... Ploughman had 2 Furrows out, and with a HM in each if them,  Honour had chance to Fields of Wheat into both of them. Would I have ended up with 4 markers or 3 at the end of that?

I'd say 4 markers - Furrow adds an additional marker when one is placed inside by a singular ability, regardless of how many you put in. With 2 AOE's, you'd place one in each to generate one from both, so it seems legit to me.

i wouldn't say that it's a design oversight though, as having two influence (at a minimum) on Ploughman could draw from resources for the rest of the team. Perhaps useful on earlier turns? Or through generating multiple furrows on a hard-hitting attack, like a charge?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, CurlyPaul said:

I did come away with a question though... Ploughman had 2 Furrows out, and with a HM in each if them,  Honour had chance to Fields of Wheat into both of them. Would I have ended up with 4 markers or 3 at the end of that?

3. You only get +1 per play or trait that creates them.

Here's the similar question from the questions board. Crop Dusting and Fields of Wheat are treated the same way.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Amalgam said:

I'd say 4 markers - Furrow adds an additional marker when one is placed inside by a singular ability, regardless of how many you put in. With 2 AOE's, you'd place one in each to generate one from both, so it seems legit to me.

You'd only be able to place 3 HMs (see above). 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hey,

I've had a couple of games with her recently and i'm not going to lie that she's pretty lacklustre. Yeah she's pretty great and moving HM's around and provides that extra influence that you may need for a turn but her TAC is awful & her playbook results aren't that great. Her threat range is pretty bad aswell. 

So i'm not 100% sold on her at the moment to even be in my 10 but i'm going to keep on trying her. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Counter Point: Honour is exactly as bad as everyone thinks.

TLDR: Low Threat, Low Tac, Inefficient Harvest markers, Tater Millstone and Harrow are too good to leave behind. 

 

Before we get into why I don't like her lets talk about the good things she brings. Momentous 1 damage double push on 2 is super unique in farmers and crazy strong under honest labor. The ability to reuse harvest markers can be helpful if you are outpacing the ones you have placed. The ability to allocate extra influence mid turn can be very strong.

I've put Honour on the table 4 times now and I will go over the reasons that she doesn't make any of my six's much less my ten.

1. The "farmers problem." Due to the unique way that farmers influence works we are severely limited in how we construct lists. In my opinion there are only 4 competitive farmers lists and I know that my number is a bit on the high side when you compare it to other competitive players. 

Thresher, Peck, Harrow, Millstone, Tater, Jack Straw Inf:12

Thresher, Peck, Harrow, Millstone, Tater, Grace Inf: 10

Grange, Peck, Harrow, Millstone, Tater, Fallow Inf: 11

Grange, Peck, Harrow, Millstone, Tater, Ploughman Inf: 13

These are the shells that the farmers play because most of their strength comes from the overlapping synergies that Tater, Millstone, and Harrow bring. To get her in we need to play her in the last squaddie slot. So lists with her look like this:

Thresher, Peck, Harrow, Millstone, Tater, vHonour Inf:12

Grange, Peck, Harrow, Millstone, Tater, vHonour Inf: 14

The thresher list is a straight downgrade in terms of the amounts of markers you can place. She is similar in many ways to Jack Straw when placing harvest markers in that she buys them with influence at the same rate, but straw can throw his much farther and can deal damage. He is also much much harder to kill.

The Grange list is where she is most exciting. Unfortunately Ploughman out classes her in nearly every way. He threats 2" farther his harvest marker gimmick is more efficient than hers, and he is harder to kill. But the biggest thing is the reason these two are good in grange is so they can push people back into honest labor after grange has activated. With only tac 4 Honour will struggle with this job and if she misses it she does one damage while Ploughman gets momentum and his AOE.

2. Her legendary is not as good as it seems. If we look at the teams that Honour plays in and you try to imagine a typical allocation you will find yourself in situations where the legendary ranges from sub par to useless. Take the thresher team as an example.

Thresher:5  Tater: 4  Harrow: 1  Honour: 1 Peck: 1 Millstone: 0

I will find it very unlikely that you have the activation to spare on her legendary before Thresher, Tater, and Harrow have activated. This means the best you can do is place 3 on millstone and 1 on peck. This also assumes that you didn't pick up any extra markers or gain any influence off of cards or goals. Wouldn't this be better spent on your reapers next turn? Too often I found that her legendary was use crofting for free this turn.

I'll cover a few points that were brought up by others in the thread. 

On 4/28/2018 at 1:24 PM, Amalgam said:
  1. vHonour Synergies - As a Farmer Player, It's important for the team to synergize well together, everyone has to be tightly-packed to take    advantage of harvest markers. In fact, this point is emphasised even more due to the recent errata, which somewhat-limited how much influence you could gain from the strategy without hurting other battle-plans. Unfortunately, this is a severe problem, as many farmers, in particular, the reapers, require a lot of influence to do their jobs effectively. vHonour is an influence-battery, providing more immediate-influence than Millstone, without requiring much influence to work herself. In addition, she synergizes well with those that usually stick to the back-lines, in particular: with the Ploughman! By using her abilities to remove, and place harvest markers, she effectively doubles the value you'd usually get from him - this only intensifies as you add a third planter. In my games, using her with Ploughman meant that I always had at least three markers to share around. That's not all though! She can be used with Jackstraw to set up his movement, to move Harrow's harvest markers if he produces them through his attacks, or to set-up basically any Reaper for a power-up at the end of a turn.

Her synergy with Ploughman is is kind of a moot point since you need to leave behind one of your best players to to run both of them. Even if we assume that running both is a good idea you spent 2 influence for 3 harvest markers. Ploughman can be brought with the planters that drop them for free and that is just more efficient.

 

On 4/28/2018 at 1:24 PM, Amalgam said:
  1. Bringing Back the Thresher - Although I agree that Thresher was originally too-good, I, for one thought that the nerfs from Steamforged were a tad much. But, I'd like to to think that they'd had considered vHonour in this decision as well - and it's just what was needed to bring the Old Father back into the limelight. In my opinion, Thresher wasn't viable due to a lack of influence his team's usual line-up had, at an unhealthy 11 (and that's without the Donkey). However, vHonour solves all of those problems, ensuring that plenty of harvest markers are available where they're needed, whilst not eating up many herself. I had much success with the following line-up: Thresher, Buckwheat  (On a Thresher Team?! Don't click away, it's Legit), Tater, Jackstraw, Ploughman, and of course, vHonour. That's 12 Influence! I also found that comboing both legendaries would just lead to a horrible, horrible turn for the opposition: I killed Anvil and Sledge in a Singular Turn!

 A thresher list with no tooled up and no way to protect him from being knocked down on turn one? Pass.

On 4/28/2018 at 1:24 PM, Amalgam said:
  1. Grange's Mauling Tractor of Doom - My favourite strategy: including Grange, Peck, Windle, Fallow, Ploughman, and vHonour. Only 11 Influence. But comboing both legendaries, will again, cause inevitable death and destruction, by maxing out the influence of nearly all of your players. Apart from that, it's all about planting to gain an advantage in the following turn, so you can max out Grange, Fallow & Windle with Influence.

This team drops 2 harvest markers a turn before grange legendary and Ploughman. If we assume you are going to drop both in Ploughman AOEs you can't activate grange first. That seems dangerous. You have only 2 things keeping your list safe (Fallow and Constitution) and one of them isn't online until after Grange's activation. Also this list wants to eat 3 harvest markers a turn. 

Ultimately I think the best way to look Honour in farmers is as training wheels. She can help you not fall down with your harvest marker placement, but not including her will allow you to ride that bike much better. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Vince, I agree with your logic. But I think you are missing a few pieces to the puzzle.

first off, Vet honour should not go in all lists just to be clear. I think she fits better with grange than thresher, and I think you only play her when you want to cage up (which if I’m not mistaken is how you play 90% of the time)

lets just assume you are playing Grange, ploughman, and vet H and harrow. Again, keep in mind you have went “full Chicago” and have prob killed the ball somewhere and have prob barley moved off your deployment line. The idea is you want them to come to you. (Which is smart is some cases. You know which cases are good and bad)

Geange can go, do his thing, prob KD someone and put up HL and ideally give tough hide to something that’s being threatened. (4 INF maybe 3) and at this point, Vince you already screwed up. (You forgot your harvest marker :-p) Ploughman can go and either just lay a roughground or 2 and be done or push some people around if you really wanna put him in the mix.

at this point you have spend MAYBE 5-7 INF. You have tough hide up on someone, HL is up, someone was/is KD and you prob still have the ball on the chicken in your bag basicly. Harrow can go lay a marker for free (you remember this) it’s on the roughground that you so conveniently placed and BOOM, magic. 2 for 1 sale. Tool up someone, attack someone, dealers choice. Momintus double harvest marker on 1 seems good! Up to you. Let’s assume you don’t do anything else but tool up someone.

you have 3 markers down. (Well you have 2 since you forgot granges) 

enter vet honour. She picks 1 up (for free), places in back in the rough ground. BOOM another flash sale. 2 for 1. 4 markets down for nothing. You have either 1 or 2 roughground stl choice from. (Which actually extends her range)

that being said these would be bunched up a bit if you only have 1 rough ground. But realistically not much worse than how you usually play it. And since fallow is there (I’m sure) she’s gonna scoop up 2 of those.

You can prob just put tape over Vet Honours playbook as I doubt you ever use it, but it is there I suppose. 

Not all models have to be able to kill something, or shoot a goal or “theaten” something. 

I submit to you this list

Grange, Peck, Vet Honour, Ploughman, Harrow, Fallow. 

Again, don’t be silly and play this into things that will exploit you for what your lacking. (Millstone)

this would be a tank list. Harrow heals for free (don’t forget Vince) tough hide where you need it. Outlast them and grind it out.

She’s a lot better than you think, if you step outside of the box that you have build yourself into. You’re a great player, figure it out.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
48 minutes ago, Poetica said:

Vince, I agree with your logic. But I think you are missing a few pieces to the puzzle.

first off, Vet honour should not go in all lists just to be clear. I think she fits better with grange than thresher, and I think you only play her when you want to cage up (which if I’m not mistaken is how you play 90% of the time)

you have 3 markers down. (Well you have 2 since you forgot granges) 

enter vet honour. She picks 1 up (for free), places in back in the rough ground. BOOM another flash sale. 2 for 1. 4 markets down for nothing. You have either 1 or 2 roughground stl choice from. (Which actually extends her range)

that being said these would be bunched up a bit if you only have 1 rough ground. But realistically not much worse than how you usually play it. And since fallow is there (I’m sure) she’s gonna scoop up 2 of those.

You can prob just put tape over Vet Honours playbook as I doubt you ever use it, but it is there I suppose. 

Not all models have to be able to kill something, or shoot a goal or “theaten” something.

 

So, I cleaned up your post to the parts that actually talk about vet Honour. And in the entirety of your defense, your one use for her is to get a free harvest market from moving an existing one into Ploughman's rough ground. That's it. Is that really worth a spot in the 6? Why am I doing this when I could take Millstone and get a free HM whenever I want, regardless of what Plough does. Like, if you admit that she's bad at killing things, shooting goals, and threatening things, why not take Millstone who's better at providing support? Everything else you said to do works better with Millstone. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I like vHonour in principle (because she's Honour and because allocating influence mid-turn is great).

In practice, what it costs to bring her in a lineup (by way of whatever player you have to leave out), I feel, outweighs what she brings to the table.

I played Thresher into Blacksmiths yesterday and had a pretty solid win (Thresher, Peck, Tater, Millstone, Harrow, Jack vs Capt. Burnish, Hearth, Ferrite, Alloy, Cinder, and Cast).  I only ended up using Tooled Up once, so maybe in that niche scenario she could have replaced Harrow, but I feel there are too many situations where you're going to want the 2" reach and Tooled Up.  In another game, against a different Smiths lineup, I think I would need Harrow.

In my Grange teams, I'm usually running Grange, Peck, Millstone, Harrow, Tater, and Fallow (sometimes Bushel).  I don't think she can replace anybody in that grouping- MAYBE Millstone if the opposing team has a lousy condition game, but even Get Out! and a free harvest marker is much better most turns than what Honour is going to do, sadly.

TL,DR: She's just not good enough for my playstyle to replace Millstone, Jackstraw, Tater, or Harrow in any of my sixes, so why give her a spot in my ten? (admittedly, my taste is questionable, because I sometimes run Bushel, but...)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Let's be clear - she's total bobbins. EXCEPT INTO FARMERS where silly loose language means she wrecks the enemy Farmer Harvest tokens (I hate this and hope it gets erratad out - it's just annoying play). She brings INF - in a team that generates extra INF anyway. She brings the ability to move HMs - except you have to activate her to do it and not take another player and moving HMs doesn't contribute to win condition. She has awful stats. Her Heroic and Legendary are lame.

She is a poor model - you can totally take her for Ploughman good times - but your actual lineup is then total crap. Ploughman is in my 10 for niche rough terrain issues (Engineers, Hunters, bad board), but taking both? In the 10? Insane. If she buffed the team in some other way I would be all over her - or if she was an actual goalie (which is not) then that too. But she is as someone pointed out 'Farmer Training Wheels'.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, EpicChris said:

Let's be clear - she's total bobbins. EXCEPT INTO FARMERS where silly loose language means she wrecks the enemy Farmer Harvest tokens (I hate this and hope it gets erratad out - it's just annoying play).

this has already been ruled that fields of wheat only affects friendly harvest markers on the rule forums so she can no longer wreck enemy harvest markers 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
43 minutes ago, Wild Rose said:

this has already been ruled that fields of wheat only affects friendly harvest markers on the rule forums so she can no longer wreck enemy harvest markers 

Ah ta! I had missed that ruling (thought they ruled the other way). Well that's about it for vHonour. Total bobbins.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, EpicChris said:

Ah ta! I had missed that ruling (thought they ruled the other way). Well that's about it for vHonour. Total bobbins.

They originally did rule it as being good in the mirror, but then realized if they played it rules as written she would drop untyped harvest markers that were friendly to neither player. Making he only interesting ability do literally nothing. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok so I've still only played that one game with her, which I lost, but only just.. I gambled on a series of dice spikes that didn't pay off, but it proved to me my list was viable.

Viable enough to make the 10? Not at all, but it was a fun game and will try again soon.

The main problem is Farmer's overall problem with lists, we have an extra resource to plan for and weird inf generation, can't just switch one player for another in the same way that others can.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I do find it funny that there is a reliance on including harrow in every list, whilst i agree tooled up can be strong i have found that farmers (grange especially) dont need to rely on it as much as other teams.

Harrow is the one i drop from most of my lists as he has the most victim like stats and someone that i find contributes very little over all after the first turn when he tends to not be near the captain.

 

I actually agree with aarons team selection as a viable one, and millstone may also be a flex slot depending on what you are playing into....but i tend to almost count her as a auto include for goal defence.

 

I also think that you can consider dropping jackstraw for ploughman which nets you 5 harvest markers a turn if you so wish for little inf cost. (Activation order dependant)

1 for rough ground, grange =2 harvests, millstone = 2 harvests, honour =2 harvests for the cost of 1 inf overall woth honour actually being able to legendary and then still create harvests for the team after allocating inf for a net of 5inf 2 harvest markers at the cost of 2 inf

The other lists you have put with harrow in (typical thresher list as an example) starts with 12 inf, and gains 4harvests at a cost of 2inf.

 

So overall the team efficiency and ability to turn the harvests inf and then into mp after turn 1 is stronger than that line up.

 

You should be able to play turn 2 onwards with 18inf a turn without plot cards counting in that. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think there's more flex in lists than people give credit for (and the US meta don't score goals so are a bit weird) but a line-up including honour and ploughman is bad. Sure you get millions of INF - who are you spending that on to win? The reason Harrow is usually superior is Tooled Up directly contributes to a win condition. Having lots of INF and nothing to spend it on doesn't. 

I would happily take Bushel for example over Harrow because Bushel contributes to a win condition. 

Sadly the design of Honour2 is just weak - i'd rather bring Jack straw who brings the INF and the harvest markers. And can score. 

I don't expect to see Honour in any winning 10s let alone 6s. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I tried 3 games using rats into variation of the list using ploughman and honour. 

18inf a turn and that turned into approx 11mom a turn. Fallow and grange do a lot of work and the fact you  an power her each turn in the maintenance phase means that running over harvest markers etc doesnt really help at all. 

My opponent had 5harvests every turn even with taking all 5. This cost one or 2 inf max.

The biggest problem is holding the ball against fast scoring teams and in this match up jackstraw is probably required. That said it was very easy for my opponent to threaten take outs and use the ball to extend ranges.

Tried variations with tater for the counter charge and harrow instead of grange. I also think the skill gap between my opponent and myself played a part.

Id certainly consider it into brawler or 2-2 teams and perhaps look at the line up into rats, shark etc.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/1/2018 at 9:29 AM, Laughnchill said:

Vince looks like your podcast should have been about this but I feel like Botts would have complained.

It was - he bitched about it a couple of weeks ago. Alex largely let him rant, with just a few counterpoints. They all generally agreed with each other.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×