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16 hours ago, Gauntlet said:

The problem Bonesaw has is that he does exactly one thing (put the ball in the goal) and on a team with Piper as the captain, pretty much anyone can do that. It's not like you need a second goal threat to work, and Pelage / Skulk aren't awful at it if they get the chance.

More damage on a team is never a downside. There's never really a point where more damage becomes useless, because if you have inf you can usually convert it into damage if you want to. More strikers on a team often just doesn't do anything - especially if the team isn't amazing at getting the ball back (like Obulus is) or already has another goal threat which you have to take (like Piper). Allocating influence to Bonesaw has reasonable odds of just doing nothing at all, since he's TAC4 and only really relevant in any way if the ball is within 9" of him.

He's occasionally useful if you can reliably score on turn one (i.e. your'e receiving) and against a team that's awful at hiding the ball (Farmers). The problem is that those teams are also those where you're somewhat short on damage due to not having a damage-dealing captain, so taking Bonesaw means you're putting the team in an awkward place where you have two dedicated footballers who don't help damage in the slightest, but also don't have enough strikers to reliably execute a mono-goals plan. Dedicating your captain and one other player to solely goals is enough that it makes the beatdown plan underwhelming, while also not enough that you can reliably threaten the entire pitch and get the ball back (especially if they just put it on Mash on whichever side Bonesaw is on..)

Also his playbook doesn't allow him to reliably recover the ball anyway. If you put it on a def 5 model or a 4/1 the odds are already not in your favor, cause here are some nice numbers.

Tac 4, tackle on 2:
against def 5 you have a 40% chance of getting that. (54% with bonus time)
against 4/1 only a 31% chance. (50% with bonus time)

On a charge they are ofcourse way better, but then they can easily counter attack you or just def stance to make it not much better:
Charge (8 dice):
def 6 is also 40% (46% with bonus time)
def 5/1 is 53% (62% with bonus time)

Any extra dice is a great help, but if you charge and they counter you there is still a chance that your second tackle will miss and you won't have influence for a meditate. So generally sad times tbh.

So you're actually way better off trying to recover the ball with Piper, Pelage, Scourge or Skulk tbh, and they can still decently strike with reverie.

tl;dr: The numbers don't lie, and they spell disaster for bonesaw!

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BE-

30 minutes ago, BE-X said:

Also his playbook doesn't allow him to reliably recover the ball anyway. If you put it on a def 5 model or a 4/1 the odds are already not in your favor, cause here are some nice numbers.

Tac 4, tackle on 2:
against def 5 you have a 40% chance of getting that. (54% with bonus time)
against 4/1 only a 31% chance. (50% with bonus time)

On a charge they are ofcourse way better, but then they can easily counter attack you or just def stance to make it not much better:
Charge (8 dice):
def 6 is also 40% (46% with bonus time)
def 5/1 is 53% (62% with bonus time)

Any extra dice is a great help, but if you charge and they counter you there is still a chance that your second tackle will miss and you won't have influence for a meditate. So generally sad times tbh.

So you're actually way better off trying to recover the ball with Piper, Pelage, Scourge or Skulk tbh, and they can still decently strike with reverie.

tl;dr: The numbers don't lie, and they spell disaster for bonesaw!

Much as I like the model, I fear you are correct.

Me and numbers never did get on well:(

I have just looked through the cards and many of the mascots and most of the Masons have :T: on 1. Unless he gets an extra TAC or a team member with "Bag of Quaffers" he does not make the ball retrieval slot. Dodgin' an' weavin' are all very well, but without the ball they are pointless. 

Bill

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Yeah, his playbook could use a rework for sure.

that said, I did play him the other night where he sunk two goals in two consecutive activations (piper and then him) 

Put a straight tackle on 1, tackle < on two.

 

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I think he needs a T on 1 and Acrobatic and then he'd be a legend. Still limited by his massive base size (WHY SFG WHY?! I mean his model IS cool but...) and low TAC but then at least he becomes a wizard striker.

But of course then you have the old problem - an excellent striker in Morts is not in their colour pie as combined with Puppet Master it would be as ridiculous as Mist is now. The removal of Mist I think is good for the game - too many factions double/triple down on strikers, but Bonesaw can't just replace him.

Maybe instead of T on 1, he gets something like Shield Throw/Sucker Punch with Wrench? I.e. he can remotely ball strip. That wouldn't be a straight T so perhaps not as outside the colour pie? Or perhaps meditation changes to Gain +2 net hits on next attack? That way he has to pay for the auto-T? Just spit-balling. I like his model and the general theory around him - but he's just a bit crap at getting the ball which seems odd for a striker model.

I definitely think that Meditation at the very least should be 'until end of turn' like Cabbage Punt. One kick isn't worth it.

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To be honest, in my opinion Bonesaw (and the other player with the same issues, Angel) could do with a full rework. A striker that isn't good at getting the ball back is just pretty much never worth a slot in a team. 

The only models whose primary purpose seems to be to score goals, that don't have a buyable dodge or 2" melee, are:

- Bonesaw

- Angel

- Brisket1 (who has a damage dealing backup plan if the ball isn't available)

- Brisket3 (who has Route One to help her reach a ball carrier)

- Friday (who has a damage dealing backup plan if the ball isn't available)

- Piper (who has a ringout or takeout setup backup plan if the ball isn't available, and has Haunting Melody to help him reach a ball carrier)

- Pin Vice (who has a damage backup plan)

- Snakeskin (who is instead good at killing a ball, and has a damage dealing backup plan)

 

Angel and Bonesaw have the unique issues of being bad at getting the ball back, and at the same time do stone cold nothing if they don't have it. I don't think there is any easy fix for these two models beyond giving them one of the two solutions above - either a use when they don't have the ball, or a better way of retrieving it.

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Bonesaw’s other thing is unexpected arrival.  It’s strong when you can land it on a charge.

however, the main issue with bonesaw is he needs to start with the ball to be switched on. It’s more doable with morts but the def 4 makes him a victim.

 

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