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Hello there! I'm slowly creeping up on a double digit amount of Ratcatchers games, where I've mostly played the original six. I've substituted Skulk for VGraves in some games, and brought Bonesaw into one of them. What I've come away with is that I'm having a hard time seeing which match ups or playstyles the mortician crossovers are good, and I'm starting to wonder if there are any at all.

Bonesaw seems more like a personal choice than anything, and I happen to be in the camp that doesn't really like what he does. He brings some massive draw backs, and I think the opportunity cost is too high. Scoring a goal with Ratcatchers isn't terribly difficult, getting the ball back is the hard part in my experience. 

VGraves has his bright moments, but the TAC5 is painfull at times and the knockdown seems to require too much set up to be reliable. He does bring a fun toolkit, and I feel like his advantages has been listed in multiple threads in here, but I feel like switching out Skulk is a trap; Having a TAC6 modell with a tackle on 2 that can annoy strikers and turn off carefully planned goals seems like a good threat into almost any matchup, not to mention that he can actually do some momentous damage if you need him to.

This thread isn't meant to be an exhaustive list of VGraves and Bonesaws advantages and disadvantages, what I've mentioned here is mostly just to set the stage for you guys to comment on this question: In what tournament match up do you think switching out any of the original six is the better play, and why? Is it ever worth going totally diseaseless, even though that means you have to bring both Vgraves and Bonesaw? Switching out Scourge (The Munchiest of all :D) and Miasma seems like way to much off a cost for me, even into Smoke, but I might lack the experience needed here. I am very interested in hearing what you guys think, and I'm trying to keep an open mind here! :) I'd really like to have some legitimate reasons to bring Vgraves and Bonesaw, other than to fill up the 8 for tournament purposes. And I think new players in the guild who just bought the box of six would like to know this aswell, when they consider wether to buy the Morticians box to fill up their roster! :)

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So my first 4 drops are always piper, squeak, miasma and scourge.

From there I need to see what my opponent is putting down. 

Any serious level of striker or a lot of dodges, skulk goes down

if they have lots of condition damage (looking at you smoke) 

graves is the default but he tends to swap either pelage or skulk.

Im sure I’ll find a matchup for bonesaw but for now, he’s bench warming

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36 minutes ago, Mattyg2787 said:

Any serious level of striker or a lot of dodges, skulk goes down

if they have lots of condition damage (looking at you smoke) 

graves is the default but he tends to swap either pelage or skulk.

Your standard 4 seems very in line with my own experience! :) I'd like to ask a few questions about this paragraph:

If you leave Skulk on the bench, say against a farmers team without a lot of dodges or strikers, who do you usually rely on to be a ball retriever? (Skulk is usually my choice for this) 

What is your thought process behind picking VGraves vs a smoke lineup? To the naked eye he seems more vulnarable to conditions than Skulk because of his lower defense, and he isn't faster than either Skulk or Pelage. (Though I can see swapping out Pelage; if her high defense doesn't save her she dies quite quickly, and that smoke team has a lot of Unpredictable Movement and female players with relativly high defensive stats to make the singled out a bit unlikely and the damage not as good.) I can see VGraves as a good counter to VKatalyst though, easy knock down target and with disease, the alchemist player needs to be even more careful about charging him in. Choosing knock down with one of Scourges 3 attacks always seem painfull! (Want those juicy damage results! :) )

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So vs farmers, I usually leave skulk at home. That said, only played into them once with rats. Needs more table time to confirm that more.

vs smoke, pelage can’t sensibly charge calculus, Mercury or smoke. Once starts suffering condition damage she drops quickly thanks to 10hp.

Graves has more boxes but he can also do a lot offensively. Kd, pushes and bleed are great. 

And you kind of want them to drop vkat so scourge can go fight his hero (and win).

i mostly like graves for his control. Disease him turn one, then have him charge and kd someone (usually with a full stack) to pin them there.  And 3/2 is decent once you get stuck in.

In conclusion, smoke lineup is miasma, scourge, skulk and graves.

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10 hours ago, Mattyg2787 said:

So my first 4 drops are always piper, squeak, miasma and scourge.

From there I need to see what my opponent is putting down. 

Any serious level of striker or a lot of dodges, skulk goes down

if they have lots of condition damage (looking at you smoke) 

graves is the default but he tends to swap either pelage or skulk.

Im sure I’ll find a matchup for bonesaw but for now, he’s bench warming

This is where I'm at too.

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What are people dropping into morts?

 

Played this as a morts player and the only troubling thing was double rataclisms and piper. Rest didnt seem to do anything. 

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15 hours ago, Stephen78 said:

What are people dropping into morts?

 

Played this as a morts player and the only troubling thing was double rataclisms and piper. Rest didnt seem to do anything. 

I imagine the 6 ratcatchers would be the best choice. Scourge and Pelage atleast should have some impact in that game :D

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18 minutes ago, Stephen78 said:

Pelage dies horribly to the puppet as he doesnt have an activation.

It's hard to comment on it while not having played the match up yet, but I would have thought using Memory to try to kill Pelage would be quite inefficient. Without help he does 1 unmomentous damage each attack, maybe two if he's lucky (or 0 if you aren't). If you sink 4 influence into doing 0-8 damage to Pelage without gaining any momentum from it, I'd say thats a win for the ratcatchers player. And with her speed she should be able to choose to just not be in that situation in the first place. Maybe if you tool him up first? Still, I'm gonna have to try facing Morticians with rats before I say to much else, I don't have the brute experience yet! :D (Hence this thread!)

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Any theory crafting needs to be finalised on the table. 

 

The problem i have with the morts matchup is im the morts player in my local area. And expanded area 

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Yeah tooled up and he out threats her quite considerably really as he has 6x2" dodges and 1" melee. 

With obulus shes in a pickle as pulled forward and crowd outs she dies very easily.

Obulus is the likely captain as it makes goal scoring difficult as holding onto the ball is hard and only a couple of models can get into him.

I guess it does also come down to the skill level of your opponents.

 

I played into Rats yesterday and received. Went 4-0 up early with a bonesaw goal. Start of 2 puppet mastered a pass for obby to score but the 3dice pass missed. He recovered and passed to bonesaw who missed the 3 dice snap shot. After that the rats managed to get back into it but only because i played so aggressively to what should have been 8-0 up.

Finished 12-9 to morts despite that.

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My current setup is:

Into general matchups:
Piper, Squeak, Scourge, Miasma, Pillage, vGraves

Into Football teams, alchs and brewers:
Piper, Squeak, Scourge, Skulk, Pillage, vGraves

Miasma doesn't like brewers or alchs, but skulk is kinda ok in those matchups.
Bonesaw never shows up cause he just doesn't do enough, everyone can strike in ratcatchers.

Still need to practice a bit more, but still riding that dark horse train! :D

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3 hours ago, BE-X said:

My current setup is:

Into general matchups:
Piper, Squeak, Scourge, Miasma, Pillage, vGraves

Into Football teams, alchs and brewers:
Piper, Squeak, Scourge, Skulk, Pillage, vGraves

Miasma doesn't like brewers or alchs, but skulk is kinda ok in those matchups.
Bonesaw never shows up cause he just doesn't do enough, everyone can strike in ratcatchers.

Still need to practice a bit more, but still riding that dark horse train! :D

I don’t think it’s quite that black and white, however, it seems to be he go to for list selection.

graves, pelage and skulk are the three flex pieces.

poor bonesaw

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Take Theron out ASAP? Pinned basically wrecks Piper so while he’s around it’s going to be a pain. 

Miasma and 2” melee here (from my massive 1 game lols). But with the new upgrades coming it’s going to be hard for sure. I found Rataclyms to the face worked well as they are squishy. Pelage was great into Jaecar. 

Anyone with more experience?

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46 minutes ago, EpicChris said:

Take Theron out ASAP? Pinned basically wrecks Piper so while he’s around it’s going to be a pain. 

Miasma and 2” melee here (from my massive 1 game lols). But with the new upgrades coming it’s going to be hard for sure. I found Rataclyms to the face worked well as they are squishy. Pelage was great into Jaecar. 

Anyone with more experience?

Yes, with my 1.5 games of hunter experience, I can confirm that chucking out rataclysms like they're going out of fashion is the way to go.

In the last game I dropped Scourge to see what would happen. I wouldn't advise it.

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I bloody love Scourge. He’s takeout fodder but damn does he get work done. If only he was 2/4! (He would be busted - or would he??? Yes he would. But would he??? :) ) 

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26 minutes ago, EpicChris said:

I bloody love Scourge. He’s takeout fodder but damn does he get work done. If only he was 2/4! (He would be busted - or would he??? Yes he would. But would he??? :) ) 

I'm never dropping him again, I promise!

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I dropped Bonesaw once, and it was because I was playing Blacksmiths using Furnace to clear conditions. I assumed disease wasn't going to be a thing, as well as KD's, poison, or bleed. With that in mind, once I knew I was receiving Bonesaw came off the bench. Set up a goal one with him, and then won turn two to get the ball back with Piper, and set up a goal two. Eight points from him seemed legit enough to use him. So my use was based off a striking team that had condition removal. Could see him into Brewers if I receive, and they have Esters, or Union Brisket with Hemlocke. Maybe Fisherman Shark, because they ain't going for kills in the game, so might as well have the little extra goal threat.

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5 hours ago, Mattyg2787 said:

People don’t pick scourge?

I only did it the once, just to see what would happen. There's no excuse and I feel like I've let you down.

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14 minutes ago, Selfy said:

I only did it the once, just to see what would happen. There's no excuse and I feel like I've let you down.

Lol. Go to the Naughty Step and Think About What You Did.

Let's talk Bonesaw - I know he gets ALL the bad press but can someone explain why he's bad? I don't often play Morts so I haven't used him for years but in Rats when receiving he seems a legit double threat. I don't like his T being on 2 sure, but a Def 5 model waiting to 1-2 goal seems good? Or is it just he's super-dice dependent and people don't like that? Coming from Hunters, 8" KICK is pretty important. I mean Skulk is great but I hate his /3 cap and I always seem to find 6" too short. 

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46 minutes ago, EpicChris said:

Lol. Go to the Naughty Step and Think About What You Did.

Let's talk Bonesaw - I know he gets ALL the bad press but can someone explain why he's bad? I don't often play Morts so I haven't used him for years but in Rats when receiving he seems a legit double threat. I don't like his T being on 2 sure, but a Def 5 model waiting to 1-2 goal seems good? Or is it just he's super-dice dependent and people don't like that? Coming from Hunters, 8" KICK is pretty important. I mean Skulk is great but I hate his /3 cap and I always seem to find 6" too short. 

The problem Bonesaw has is that he does exactly one thing (put the ball in the goal) and on a team with Piper as the captain, pretty much anyone can do that. It's not like you need a second goal threat to work, and Pelage / Skulk aren't awful at it if they get the chance.

More damage on a team is never a downside. There's never really a point where more damage becomes useless, because if you have inf you can usually convert it into damage if you want to. More strikers on a team often just doesn't do anything - especially if the team isn't amazing at getting the ball back (like Obulus is) or already has another goal threat which you have to take (like Piper). Allocating influence to Bonesaw has reasonable odds of just doing nothing at all, since he's TAC4 and only really relevant in any way if the ball is within 9" of him.

He's occasionally useful if you can reliably score on turn one (i.e. your'e receiving) and against a team that's awful at hiding the ball (Farmers). The problem is that those teams are also those where you're somewhat short on damage due to not having a damage-dealing captain, so taking Bonesaw means you're putting the team in an awkward place where you have two dedicated footballers who don't help damage in the slightest, but also don't have enough strikers to reliably execute a mono-goals plan. Dedicating your captain and one other player to solely goals is enough that it makes the beatdown plan underwhelming, while also not enough that you can reliably threaten the entire pitch and get the ball back (especially if they just put it on Mash on whichever side Bonesaw is on..)

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I do wish Bonesaw had Acrobatic - of all the models in the game he feels like he should have acrobatic (this nutty priest ninja dude). Hopefully in S4 pass he will have Acrobatic. I think that will make him much more useful.

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