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Rejusu

Model distribution needs to change

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Yeah, I think putting the teams into two boxes was fine cause most people buy all players for a team but putting them all together like this instead of blisters for the new boxes is frustrating.

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On 4/27/2018 at 10:11 AM, Rejusu said:

They didn't seem to mind people purchasing Seasoned Brisket without first explaining that her Union model status was temporary.

(...and subsequent posts on the same topic.)

My thought on this is that at the start of Season 3, when sBrisket, Benediction, and Grace all came out, they didn't know this was the direction they would end up taking a year and a half later, so I don't think it's fair to attribute malice aforethought here.

As far as the Minor Guilds go, I agree, it would be nice if there was a way to get the "crossover" models from the Major Guild without having to buy one or two whole team boxes to get them.  The Launch Party packs have alt sculpts for them (that are amazing!), and I thought I heard rumblings that those might be available down the line...?  Don't remember where that is sourced from, though.  Whispers in the wind or me hallucinating, perhaps (I'm still pretty tired from the Spring Fling this weekend)...

As far as the Exiles and Faithful boxes go...if they can't be singles, if I were SFG, I'd make them individually available on the webstore, maybe a month later than the box releases, to give FLGS a chance at getting sales on the release day, but still give everybody access to the models.  I totally understand the frustration with this one, even if I'm planning on buying both.  (Heck, I'm crazy enough to buy the Solthecian box for the alt. Harry and Pride, with the intent to turn the doubles of the other four into statues/terrain/goalposts or RPG models.)  Still, making people buy stuff they don't need/want is a dangerous game.  It'd be one thing if there was one repeat model in the box.  More than that starts to get dicey.

In the long run, if they can resolve the crossover models problem and stop putting out multi-guild boxes, this "transition from blisters to boxes" is a good move for the company- once all the boxes are out and the blisters have been phased out, players switching over to a new guild or especially new players getting into the game (which are vital for its long-term health) will benefit tremendously from the consistency of a "buy it and use it" box system.  The transition is going to be painful, however.  It would have been nice if SFG had given the players a few months' warning before it happened (maybe they did and I didn't know?  Want to give them the benefit of the doubt, here), but it's the right move for the long-term health of the game once we're past the immediate growing pains and turbulence.

I do 100% believe that SFG is doing the best they can and that they do care about their players.  They may make mistakes from time to time (I know I do at my job), but their hearts are in the right place and they're working hard to make the best game, company, and community that they can.  I think that's important for us to remember!

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@Fish-in-a-Beer Agreed that Steamforged has a strong "give a shit" factor for the folks that play their games.

As a long time miniature gamer (started in 1980) that is a rare and beautiful thing.

Us gamers can get pretty passionate about our army mens/static action figures but I think the SFG team has earned some patience from us as they continue to sort out the whole model release thing.

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If SFG will get away with invalidating one model, whats there to stop them to "retire" entire finished teams in a season X?

Would anybody like that to be YOUR fav guild?
Because sBrisket is at the moment my fav union captain -.-

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16 minutes ago, Larhendiel said:

If SFG will get away with invalidating one model, whats there to stop them to "retire" entire finished teams in a season X?

Would anybody like that to be YOUR fav guild?
Because sBrisket is at the moment my fav union captain -.-

They have said all along that eventually in time guilds would get no new releases. They recognize that the amount they can add to any one guild is finite and that eventually a guild will be "done". 

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@LarhendielI understand and sympathize with your frustration. 

I'm a long time Morticians player who will miss the hell out of having Mist as an option.

Hoping that Seasoned Spigot and Vet Fangtooth make playing Seabrisket in "The Order" super fun.

At least we can still use these players just with new teammates (perhaps a hollow consolation) but far better than "legal model crap" from other gaming companies I've had to deal with.

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I think the issues around seaBrisket and 6 man boxes are a separate thing.

I'm not a fan of customers potentially needing to buy a 6 man box containing models they don't want/need in order to obtain models they do. 

I have less of an issue with models having their faction adjusted for gameplay reasons, which, to all intents and purposes, is what's occurring with SBrisket. 

While I'll happily bang on about how dumb I think the current retail model is, I still retain every confidence that changes to the game are given due consideration and are made because SFG feel it allows for better balance or opens up new design space, and I'm relatively content to suck it up now and again if a model I own isn't valid in a specific context any more (which is competitive games, let's not act like existing sBriskets that aren't accompanied by all the other church models in their owner's collection will disintegrate the second they're no longer tourney legal.)

People need to ask themselves if needing to sack off one model is really that big of a deal in the context of the bigger picture of the growth and development of the game as a whole. 

I write this post as an owner of sBrisket since January, who will now probably never use her for the purpose she was purchased for (Union) as the odds of me getting that far down the paint queue before she leaves are tiny. But then, I'll be able to paint her up in a Church scheme instead!

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7 hours ago, Larhendiel said:

If SFG will get away with invalidating one model, whats there to stop them to "retire" entire finished teams in a season X?

Would anybody like that to be YOUR fav guild?
Because sBrisket is at the moment my fav union captain -.-

They aren't invalidating a model, you can still use it in any team list you like outside of tournaments which use the OPD and she will still have uses within that system after the s4 changes..

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18 hours ago, Redmaw said:

1) & 2) People are always unhappy about every decision.. This is basically the same argument as with older Union players being removed from active duty in other Major Guilds.. 

3) Most TCG / LCG games require players to spend a minimum of £200 every three months or so at a random chance of getting cards they need for the current meta, or on individual unpackaged singles at a much higher price.. Games like Xwing and Shadespire require you to purchase miniatures you do not need just to get one or two cards out of the box.. While it's not ideal the same can be said for almost any "competetive" game and at the end do the day, all purchases are optional...

4) As mentioned above, Shadespire requires you to purchase practically every release to get all the cards required for "competitive" play.. At the time of writing that's approximately £140 and counting (and a lot of miniatures and cards you don't need).. BloodBowl requires you to purchase at least two boxes to make a viable tournament roster and then it's just 4x the same static pose, that's £40 base before you start to add in Star Players, and again a lot of excess miniatures you don't "need".. As an additional comment I will add that Necromunda is exceptional quality in terms or both value and what you get in a box, however each gang still "requires" a minimum buy in of two boxes to make all of the "official" loadouts and additional books and cards with every gang launch... 

5) You aren't going to get any argument from me regarding the lower quality "board game" PVC compared to GW production plastics.. But that is a topic which has been flogged to death on multiple other topics..

1&2) Just because it's the same argument doesn't mean it's any less valid. But you're missing the crux of the argument. It's not removing her from the lineup that's egregious on its own. It's that if you want to continue playing with her once we move into season 4 then as it stands right now you have to buy two £50 boxes. One which already contains her and multiple other models you may already own and one which contains multiple models you may not have any use for. And it's the same for a lot of the odd Union models that people own. By the time the minor guilds started coming out the only real option people have to make their orphaned Union models usable again typically involves rebuying some or all of those models or hunting for remaining blister packs online. That's what's most disagreeable about all this.

3) All those models have their pros and cons but you can't really compare GB to a CCG. CCG product has generally better resale value than miniature game product and has a thriving singles and trading market that can greatly offset the costs of playing if you're smart about it. We're also talking about miniature games, not card games.

4) It's not required to have every option to build a competitive deck and unless you're paying RRP for everything you're more likely to spend ~£120 than ~£140. But if you want to do the same in Guild Ball, have every single competitive option, you're looking at £90 (soon to be £130ish with minor guilds factored in, more if you add in these multi guild boxes) for a single guild. The only exception being Farmers and Butchers currently. You're forgetting that the £120-140 that buying every Shadespire release will cost you gives you every single option in the entire game. Not just for a single faction. And while you may end up getting stuff you don't "need" everything is something you can use. Which is more than can be said of the multi guild boxes. Also that £120-140 gets you a board, tokens, dice, everything you need to play the game. You don't get that with the £90-130 you'd be dropping on GB unless you limit yourself to Masons or Brewers.

Again not saying GB is the worst but I don't think it's exceptionally competitive in terms of price either. As a hobbyist as well as a gamer dropping £50 on 6 tiny metal minis when I could be getting a big box of beautiful plastics for the same price is tough.

16 hours ago, Fish-in-a-Beer said:

(...and subsequent posts on the same topic.)

My thought on this is that at the start of Season 3, when sBrisket, Benediction, and Grace all came out, they didn't know this was the direction they would end up taking a year and a half later, so I don't think it's fair to attribute malice aforethought here.

...

I do 100% believe that SFG is doing the best they can and that they do care about their players.  They may make mistakes from time to time (I know I do at my job), but their hearts are in the right place and they're working hard to make the best game, company, and community that they can.  I think that's important for us to remember!

I also agree they didn't know what they were doing, it seemed like they wanted to have the Church released at season 3 but couldn't get it ready in time. And no I don't think what they did was malicious. But I do think it's a little ridiculous that they put out this disclaimer for these models when they didn't for sBrisket. It was unintentional yes, but it still doesn't change the fact they did the thing that is supposedly the last thing they want. It just comes off as a little hypocritical.

And I'm sorry but actions speak louder than good intentions. Plus if this is SFG doing the best they can that's actually a bad thing because there's plenty of things they could do better.

10 hours ago, Azreal13 said:

I think the issues around seaBrisket and 6 man boxes are a separate thing.

I'm not a fan of customers potentially needing to buy a 6 man box containing models they don't want/need in order to obtain models they do. 

I have less of an issue with models having their faction adjusted for gameplay reasons, which, to all intents and purposes, is what's occurring with SBrisket.

See the rest of this post. I don't think the problem with Seasoned Brisket and the 6 man boxes is unrelated because I don't think her moving faction would be as much of an issue if the distribution of models wasn't so messed up. I also don't have an issue with models being adjusted for gameplay reasons (except when they hit them too hard with the nerf bat) but I do have an issue with a model being moved into a faction when the only way to obtain the rest of that faction involves rebuying the model and a bunch of other models you don't need.

I also have a problem with SFG claiming they don't want to mislead players about the faction status of models without acknowledging that they've already done so, even if it wasn't intentional.

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44 minutes ago, Rejusu said:

4) It's not required to have every option to build a competitive deck and unless you're paying RRP for everything you're more likely to spend ~£120 than ~£140. But if you want to do the same in Guild Ball, have every single competitive option, you're looking at £90 (soon to be £130ish with minor guilds factored in, more if you add in these multi guild boxes) for a single guild. The only exception being Farmers and Butchers currently. You're forgetting that the £120-140 that buying every Shadespire release will cost you gives you every single option in the entire game. Not just for a single faction. And while you may end up getting stuff you don't "need" everything is something you can use.

Respectfully disagree a little with the Shadespire comparison - without going into great detail there are cards in the recent expansions that added some very nice options to one of my previous warbands, to get said cards I had to buy models I really didn't want and might never use. So really, not much different that peoples complaints about the Guild Ball box sets.

Also, Shadespire is very new, would be interesting to compare the $$ investment after 2 more years of releases with just one or two cards you want per expansion.

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2 hours ago, Alphadork said:

Respectfully disagree a little with the Shadespire comparison - without going into great detail there are cards in the recent expansions that added some very nice options to one of my previous warbands, to get said cards I had to buy models I really didn't want and might never use. So really, not much different that peoples complaints about the Guild Ball box sets.

Also, Shadespire is very new, would be interesting to compare the $$ investment after 2 more years of releases with just one or two cards you want per expansion.

Well you'll have to go into more detail if you want to make a compelling point because they are pretty different for the following two reasons:

1. While there are things in the box you might not necessarily want, everything in the box is something you can use with no additional purchase required. This is a stark difference from the exiles box which has things in the box that not only do you not want but cannot even use. Also just because some expansions come with useful cards still doesn't mean you need every single one to build a competitive deck.

2. Price. A Shadespire Warband is £17.95 RRP and it's not hard to find them under £15. These multi team boxes are £50 RRP and I haven't seen the 6 metal model boxes much lower than £45. Don't get me wrong, I don't think the Shadespire distribution model is perfect but there's a big difference between paying £15 for some things you don't necessarily want but can and may still use versus £45 for some things you don't want and can't really do anything with other than resell or repurpose.

Yes as Shadespire goes on there will be more releases and it'll cost more and more to have every option available. But if the next wave is similar to the first, a starter and six Warbands, then even if you only regularly played with 2-3 Warbands it's comparable in price to owning two Guilds in Guild Ball. Only you have access to every faction and every option for that faction in the entire game...

If you only ever play one guild in guild ball then in the long run it'll probably work out cheaper, provided you don't have to pay £50 for a single new guild model on a regular basis...

At any rate this isn't about going into in depth comparisons on the price of other games versus the price of Guild Ball. I originally brought it up to dismiss the idea that Guild Ball is competitively priced so things like this are forgivable. There are plenty of games on the market that are as competitively priced if not more so.

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2 hours ago, Rejusu said:

1) It's that if you want to continue playing with her once we move into season 4 then as it stands right now you have to buy two £50 boxes. One which already contains her and multiple other models you may already own and one which contains multiple models you may not have any use for. 

2) It's the same for a lot of the odd Union models that people own. By the time the minor guilds started coming out the only real option people have to make their orphaned Union models usable again typically involves rebuying some or all of those models or hunting for remaining blister packs online. 

3) CCG product has generally better resale value than miniature game product and has a thriving singles and trading market that can greatly offset the costs of playing if you're smart about it. We're also talking about miniature games, not card games.

4a) It's not required to have every option to build a competitive deck and unless you're paying RRP for everything you're more likely to spend ~£120 than ~£140.

4b) You're forgetting that the £120-140 that buying every Shadespire release will cost you gives you every single option in the entire game.

4c) And while you may end up getting stuff you don't "need" everything is something you can use. Which is more than can be said of the multi guild boxes.

4d) Also that £120-140 gets you a board, tokens, dice, everything you need to play the game. You don't get that with the £90-130 you'd be dropping on GB unless you limit yourself to Masons or Brewers.

1) If you want to play her competitively in tournaments using the OPD you may need to purchase an additional product which may contain miniatures you already own once Season 4 begins. There is however a good chance "The Order" will get a PVC team box containing the three newly announced Solthecian players, also by the looks of things it appears that it may be possible to purchase resin singles if you do not wish to end up with duplicates.

2) Again, this is only if you are requiring to use these miniatures using the restrictions outlined in the OPD, there is nothing stopping you from playing with any team composition you fancy outside of the most competitive setting.. I don't understand why people think SFG are going to drive around confiscating any rogue miniatures they may own if they don't own a full "legal" tournament roster..

3) I'll agree TCG/CCG/LCG have a much stronger singles market, but it also has a lot larger player-base.. They do however regularly rotate cards out of use as part of their business mode and I've lost count of the amount of common, uncommon and even rare cards I have in shoe boxes which are obsolete and unwanted and unsellable..

4a) Yes you do.. You can create decks without having access to every card in the game, however you do need every card to have every option.

4b) £120-£140 covers everything  which has been released since launch, seven months ago, with no indication of slowing down of stopping..

4c) Everything in multi guild boxes is something that can be "used".. Whether this is in their intended guilds, splitting boxes with friends, reselling for profit, painting for "fun", or just throwing on a table for a random casual game to see what broken compositions you can come up with..

4d) £50 gets you everything you need to play Guild Ball (if you limit yourself to Brewers and Masons), you can generally pick up both PVC boxes for Farmers or Blacksmths for less than £70 if you shop around online and these include scenery and tokens.. The only additional cost required is for dice and measuring sticks, something most people regularly have in their house.. Alternately you could pick up either of these PVC Guilds or one of the new Minor Guilds (with it's cross guild players) and the Kick Off box for anywhere between £90-£120 (£220 if you want the major guild paired with it) and and have everything you need to play anything from a casual game to a competitive tournament roster.

I'm not saying you can't have an opinion regarding the cost or distribution method, or that your opinion is necessarily invalid.. However you seem to be looking at this with an incredibly closed mind and only focusing on the negatives of the SFG / Guild Ball business model while only focusing on the positives for other manufacturing companies..

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20 minutes ago, Redmaw said:

I'm not saying you can't have an opinion regarding the cost or distribution method, or that your opinion is necessarily invalid.. However you seem to be looking at this with an incredibly closed mind and only focusing on the negatives of the SFG / Guild Ball business model while only focusing on the positives for other manufacturing companies..

See below, because at this point I'd just be repeating what's already been said for the most part if I addressed everything:

57 minutes ago, Rejusu said:

At any rate this isn't about going into in depth comparisons on the price of other games versus the price of Guild Ball. I originally brought it up to dismiss the idea that Guild Ball is competitively priced so things like this are forgivable. There are plenty of games on the market that are as competitively priced if not more so.

Also accusing someone of close mindedness is a pretty cheap tactic to try and win an argument.

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13 minutes ago, Rejusu said:

See below, because at this point I'd just be repeating what's already been said for the most part if I addressed everything:

Also accusing someone of close mindedness is a pretty cheap tactic to try and win an argument.

I think I was in the process of typing my last response when you posted yours so did not see this till now.. Also, I did not mean to cause offence so if you took it that way then this was not intentional.. I just feel many people on this post seem to be in the mindset that SFG is out to rip them off and ignoring any of the potential solutions or impending changes which have been hinted at..

11 minutes ago, Mako said:

Everyone step back and take a breath. I don’t want to have to get involved...

If anything I posted was against forum guidelines (I probably should check those again) feel free to let me know and I will attempt to edit the post or clarify my intention..

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I would like to continue to speak about Brisket.
I think we could have Brisket as Union captain anyway.

Could SFG be so nice and introduce a first of her kind;
Double guild captain Brisket

After all life would be boring if there were no choices or options

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6 hours ago, Redmaw said:

4c) Everything in multi guild boxes is something that can be "used".. Whether this is in their intended guilds, splitting boxes with friends, reselling for profit, painting for "fun", or just throwing on a table for a random casual game to see what broken compositions you can come up with..

This touches an interesting discussion about what constitutes "used" versus used.

To use an analogy. No one says that you have to get rid of all your cards when MTG's Standard Format rotates. All that is is Wizards of the Coast saying, "these cards aren't allowed anymore." But they're not going to come battering down your door if you don't play by their rules right? It's entirely feasible if you enjoy Khans of Tarkir Standard that you can just continue to play and ignore Wizard's format changes.... right?

If you've played Magic, you know that this isn't true. Rotation kills your deck, and you have to make a new one. Whether this is good or bad is beyond the point.

Wizards defines the way you have to play the game and the meta, even if it doesn't like the definitions Wizards has set out, will adhere to it. E.G. Everyone HATED Battle For Zendikar Standard, but my LGS continued to run it on Fridays. I feel like there's another interesting discussion in there about WHY this happens, but suffice it to say it does. So while the cards that rotated out can be, "used," they can't actually be used. Yea I can dig up a ton of commons and make a cape out of them, or do some neat crafts and stuff, but if we're talking about uses that aren't playing the game, then we're not talking about uses. We're talking about "uses."

Bringing it back to Guild Ball, if the foundational rules of GB were changed, then it's still technically possible to play by the version of the rules you still liked. Alternate Deployments as an example, but unless there's unanimous agreement among your community, you're going to be split off from it.

I've mentioned it before, but GB is struggling where I am, to even pull off a casual event, let alone a consistent night at any LGS. Networking with players to sell or trade models, or test out different rules sets, like GIC's, or Alt Deployment or agree on an alternative to the ruleset that SFG defines is..... difficult... if at all possible.

sBrisket becoming invalidated for the Union, and then requiring a new box with mostly redundant models be purchased to become playable in her own Guild, is a pretty crap deal. I don't assume ill will about SFG, I just think the decisions they made about how to distribute models has a number of unintended consequences, and I think a solution should be looked into for the players it's affecting.

SFG gives a lot of shits about their game and their community, that's very clear. But from my perspective, it feels like quite a bit of an "in" group. Especially with releases like Lucky floating around, and for how long people were playing with the Farmers and Blacksmiths before they became available.

I don't know if the players this distribution affects, the ones not connected to a strong community, are in and of themselves enough incentive for SFG to provide an alternative. No one's arguing that you unanimously CAN'T work around the distribution methods in place. Only that the level of effort and success involved will be highly variable, and just isn't feasible for all players.

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On 27/04/2018 at 7:25 PM, Mako said:

Lets give them a chance to show what they’ve got planned before we worry too much :)

Are you advocating that everyone stop purchasing any SFG products until at least SteamConUK, as well as dissuade prospective new players from purchasing, @Mako? Cos SFG have been awful at communicating where they are going with this for a long time now, and I don't expect them to come out with a solution (or tell us of plans for one) before SteamCon. The most we got out of RIch Loxam on a similar Facebook comment stream was essentially "we're making lots of sales so far, so it's all good". He didn't say where these sales were coming from (new markets only, global, UK only, etc), or what products (minor guilds, all guilds, metal 6-player boxes) and that was before Exile and Faithful were released. I'm not impressed, and have myself had to dissuade prospective players from certain products (local FLGS still has S1 starters and a few singles).

I'm lucky in that I have almost all of these teams so the boxes aren't too bad for me, but I still have a couple of models to try and shift, and I don't like the hassle of trying to sell online.

As far as I can see, SFG will have to sell the major guild's dual pairs in paired blisters at some point (a la Grace & Benny), almost certainly the alt sculpts from the release pack to make them more appealing to people who already have the original teams. Buying the minor for your major shouldn't be too much of a hardship, as it's a self-contained team with no additional models planned for release, so worst case you have a spare team you can trot out for the occasional casual game for a change of pace, for a not-too-bad price.

Singles for those who didn't complete their teams before the change is on SFG. They should have provided a way of getting those models after they prevented LGS from getting hold of them. It has created bad feeling toward the company, which will not help it's growth when longer term players vent and moan to prospective newer ones, and reduce future sales across all product lines. There is clearly (especially with the two new mixed boxes and Pride) still a massive market for singles, people are essentially begging SFG to let them buy product from them, but SFG are making very difficult for them to do so. Guild Ball is the only 'proper' minis game I now play due to budget restrictions - Frostgrave, Gaslands and Pathfinder are very cheap because them require no specific miniatures so I can mix and match, scavenge from my old collections, convert and bodge for a very low price to play them. If keeping up with Guild Ball gets too pricey, my only real option is essentially to drop out, as there is little opportunity to play casually locally, as the player base is small and very spread out. Events are my only chance for a decent number of games, and they are becoming fewer and further between (3 cancelled locally in last 2 months, last Farmer's release had 2 people turn up). This is a bad patch for Guild Ball and I'm hoping (but not convinced) it will come out the other side soon.

TL:DR: I agree, SFG should sell singles on their webstore, and clearly state what their long term plan for Guild Ball is, specifically plastic majors and allowing players the opportunity to complete a single guild if they choose to do so (access to singles of Exile and Faithful + minor guild duals).

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So looks like resins are back but not in singles despite the fact they're going to be primarily selling them through their webstore and not through LGSs.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

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On the positive side, LE pride went up in the webstore today, so everybody can take a deep breath about the Solthecian box.  Union players, you've got your answer- SFG has heard and responded. =)

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45 minutes ago, Fish-in-a-Beer said:

On the positive side, LE pride went up in the webstore today, so everybody can take a deep breath about the Solthecian box.  Union players, you've got your answer- SFG has heard and responded. =)

Sold Out when I just tried to check out -_-;; 

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