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I've been having lots of success playing Gutter alongside Corsair recently, however, when the Navigators get released we'll loose access to her. As a consequence of this, I've been trying to work out who she would get replaced with, if I was to play pure guild. I've been toying with the idea of Kraken, but he's slow and brings less influence to the team. Does anybody have any suggestions as to how to play Corsair without Gutter?

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My thinking so far is:

Wait to see what options the Navigators bring. If there is nothing of great use just accept that the a comfortable 2-2 strategy into most teams is now gone. At that point take Corsair, Tentacles, Sakana, oSiren, Greyscales and Hag. 3-0 into tough teams, 2-2 into squishy teams and speak wistfully of the times when 1-4 was a thing the team could do.

I can honestly see SFG not giving the fish access to any more momentous damage whilst we still have the season 3 rules and players. Season 4 may see a change but I can also see it making some big changes to Corsair. Lets face it, he has went through Season 2 and 3 unchanged and although the competitive meta has changed quite a bit he still seems to come out on top a lot of the time.

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1 hour ago, Banjulhu said:

Wait to see what options the Navigators bring.

Whilst this is an option for me, I've got a new player asking for Corsair suggestions. I don't want to suggest any Union players as they will get cycled out soon.

I'm thinking of playing Jac in place of Gutter: Corsair, Salt, Jac, Sakana, Greyscales, Hag. I can use Sakana, Corsair, and Jac in the scrum in the middle. Jac's not a bad beater, and he is fairly decent as re-positioning players. Hag can re-position Corsair and Jac, and be used to disengage Sakana when I can get the ball back. Greyscales will play around in one of the wings and Salt can be used to collect the ball if it's near the opponent's goal.

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Jac is not a bad beater, he is a terrible one.

Trying for take outs with non-momentous damage results should not be a go to tactic. Beyond that his momentous KD is too high on the book to be reliable except on a charge and at the low end the only attractive result is his single momentous push.

Jac is rarely going to do much of use in a protracted brawl that you are looking to win like Gutter does (or A&G previously did) beyond bring crowding out bonuses. He more or less works as a ramming speed/Trident tested combo to clear out an unfavourable scrum rather than being the tool to win one.

That's not to say he can't be dropped into the team slot Gutter fills he just wont ever do the job she does currently and so you will have to change the game plan up a lot to account for that.

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15 minutes ago, Banjulhu said:

Trying for take outs with non-momentous damage results should not be a go to tactic.

Whilst I would normally agree with you, if you are going for 2-2, it's going to a lot harder without selecting the non-momentous results. Still, I want to give Jac a go in the middle. For me he normally hangs around the edge of the pitch threatening push-outs.

I'm expecting the navigators cross-over players to be more football orientated,  which would mean that the 1-4 strategy with fish is going to die away.

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I'm much more going to miss gutter with shark than Corsair. Corsair does 1-4 and 2-2 just fine without gutter.  It's shark who needs help getting 2-2 reliably.

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1 hour ago, Zombiepops said:

It's shark who needs help getting 2-2 reliably.

I'm sitting here, mouth somewhat agape, thinking why on earth you'd EVER try to get Shark in a 2-2 game. 

In all my experience, Shark is a 3-0 captain... should be petal to the metal, looking to score every opportunity. Any kills could be opportunistic, but never "planned"...

All that said, I guess you can call this a testament to the varied yet balanced gameplay that SFG has created. :) Silver lining.

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34 minutes ago, skcpae said:

I'm sitting here, mouth somewhat agape, thinking why on earth you'd EVER try to get Shark in a 2-2 game. 

In all my experience, Shark is a 3-0 captain... should be petal to the metal, looking to score every opportunity. Any kills could be opportunistic, but never "planned"...

All that said, I guess you can call this a testament to the varied yet balanced gameplay that SFG has created. :) Silver lining.

Gutter in Shark isn't really about trying to get 2-2. It's about having good tools available to go 2-2 if the 3-0 main plan inevitably hits a road block via strong ball defense. 

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2 hours ago, Akaleth said:

Gutter in Shark isn't really about trying to get 2-2. It's about having good tools available to go 2-2 if the 3-0 main plan inevitably hits a road block via strong ball defense. 

This. If 3-0 is available, go for it. But your opponent knows this because you dropped shark, and is going to try and stop you. Being able to switch to 2-2 and hunt squishier targets is an important option to have.

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I think you can cut Gutter out without too much problem. If you're looking for six with Corsair, I'd go Corsair, Tentacles, Sakana, Hag, Kraken, Jac/Greyscales/Siren. Kraken might not be a world beater, but he has 2 damage on 2, some momentous damage, and can set up Corsair so that he doesn't have to spend influence on Drag himself every time. This list definitely has a 2/2 approach with ability to flex to either 1/4 or 3/0 if the opponent provides the opportunity.

For a pure guild 10, I'd say Shark, Corsair, Salt, Tentacles (personal preference here), Sakana, Hag, Greyscales, oSiren, Jac, Kraken. I don't think you get almost any value out of Angel or vSiren, so I'd prefer the second mascot. You'll typically run Sakana and Hag every game with Greyscales being the next most common and then oSiren, Jac, and Kraken competing for the last slot. The loss of the Union slot decreases our flexibility but doesn't really weaken the guild too much since Gutter doesn't do anything with Shark normally, you can typically get by without the condition clearing of Hemlocke, and neither Snakeskin or Fangtooth really bring much of anything to the team. Fish are one of the better guilds to get into without relying on Union :)

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Kraken comes with 1 Inf, can only be given a max of 3 and is a battery for opponents wanting to generate MP. Having a non-momentous 2 damage on the second column does not a useful melee beater make. He's a setup piece, the issue is that without enough potential to resolve a melee a setup piece is moot.

To me doing a 1-4 with only Corsair putting out reliable good momentous damage (Kraken only does it at the top end of his book so will pretty much hit it) will rarely work because the lack of MP generation to heal and throw off conditions will become ultimately become too crippling.

To my mind without a new damage dealer I would also argue the loss of Gutter is going to be a big problem mostly because although Shark does not care much for the Union slot, Corsair, the captain that people tend to prefer into most teams really does need a friend putting out momentous damage in the scrum with him.

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Gutter isn't going to rotate out until August so I think it's safe to get some practice in with her still if you're learning the game. Corsair uses her mostly for 2" melee and momentous damage, which isnt a bad thing for a new player to learn how to manage (also it's fairly forgiving). 

 

As far as Navigators go, I'm optimistic that the fluff's liberal use of "buccaneer" and "freebooter" indicates that at least a couple players will be piratey (so mp dmg similar in theme to Corsair). Whether those players are the dual ones I don't know, but I'm hopful that a sort of replacement emerges for Corsair. 

If you really want to play a pure guild Corsair game, try Corsair, tentacles, sakana, jac, vsiren, hag.  You have to kill the ball pretty agressively and use siren like she's pre-nerf, but I've seen top-tier Corsair players do very well with it. 

Corsair, jac, and hag all move opponents models and you have to consistently make the game a positioning nightmare for the other team. It's not the old fashioned Fish Tank that was popular with corsair, but if you like the slow play, it can be successful. 

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