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Banjulhu

The Navigator's Guild

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2 hours ago, Penguin Warrior said:

but at the end of the day, he's a 1" melee, 3/1 model who needs four net hits in order to recover the ball without immediately getting counter attacked

Seems harsh. Most counter attacks don't actually do as much to him as normal. He is capable of engaging without using his advance, so pushes or knock down don't stop him in the same way they would others.  

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If he uses his dodge or movement to re-engage after a counter attack suffered from engaging in the first place he will be causing himself more problems as he will be making himself an 8 wound 3+/1 model locked in combat.

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I'm probably happy to trade 1vp for getting the ball back into play. He's probably only occasionally better than a normal ball retriever but I'm not sure how often he is worse than one. 

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I'm actually liking Horizon. That ability to reroll really helps with his dice probability, his 1VP value and his deployment rule make him amazing for suicide runs and quickly getting back into the action, his 5" dodge makes him very hard to pin or slow down, and his low kick dice and reroll means that your opponent is limited in how much they can screw with his shot. Heck, on a charge against a defence 4 model he's averaging around 6 hits with his reroll (num dice * probability of success + num dice * probability of failure * probability of success) so he's decently likely to get that TDD result. Plus, when he comes back he's always at full health - no matter how low that is. Your opponent either lets him be an irritating threat that's far worse than he looks, or wastes resources dealing with him for 1 VP.

As a Shark player, I like this guy! I would probably give up oSiren or Hag for him in my list (Shark, Tentacles/Salt, Greyscales, Sakana, Hag, oSiren).

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12 hours ago, QuirkyAI said:

Heck, on a charge against a defence 4 model he's averaging around 6 hits with his reroll (num dice * probability of success + num dice * probability of failure * probability of success) so he's decently likely to get that TDD result. 

Exactly. With rerolls, he's effectively TAC 6 basic, TAC 12 on the charge. 4th column on a charge is not that hard, average dice at worst. An achievable charge result of 5 net hits can get T, T<<, which cracks close control, disengages the target and provides 1 MOM for the shot. Not bad.

Major weakness is glut mass. Unpredictable movement is bad for him as well, since it shuts down his charge TAC bonus. He's easy to kill, but only worth 1 VP and if you include his icy sponge jog he will threaten 16" from either player's board edge plus any boosts from fast ground and/or game plans if he gets taken out - i.e. nowhere is safe for the ball. Taking him out will be a dilemma, in many cases probably leaving the opponent 3VP down.

I don't play fish so can't comment on whether there are better options, but he seems strong to me. 

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He looks pretty fantastic if he dies at the right time, if he doesn't then not so much. Is there a way for current Fishermen to push him off the pitch?

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It's not just 1VP that this guy could be giving up, there is also things like him offering up easy activation advantage unless you activate him first when he returns to that vaunted threatening field position.

The big test for him I feel will be how much effort it takes to take him down, if he takes half the effort or more for half the VP that a normal player would give up then he may be ok, but if he takes less than half the investment then there is a problem.

On other problem that I think will likely hit all the Navigators is that because their momentous results are at the back of the playbooks generating MP at the right rate is going to be tricky.

Generally when you spend the 2 inf to charge you hope for a wrap and a payout of two momentous results and when just attacking after spending 1 Inf you hope to get 1MP. Navigators look to be a little behind the curve here especially when you start to take into account armour.

Then again it looks like the Windfinder has some sort of ranged TAC buff which should help the Navigators out, Fishermen sadly don't have that kind of tech at the moment.

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17 hours ago, Adran said:

Seems harsh. Most counter attacks don't actually do as much to him as normal. He is capable of engaging without using his advance, so pushes or knock down don't stop him in the same way they would others.  

Horizon is all about the ball and only has 3 influence he can use. So regardless of how he engages, a tackle or KD from a counter attack can render his activation completely useless. So in order to reliably get the ball and keep it alive in a helpful way, he's going to need to bounce off of his target once he gets the ball, meaning that if he doesn't get to 4 net hits, he's in trouble.

14 hours ago, QuirkyAI said:

Heck, on a charge against a defence 4 model he's averaging around 6 hits with his reroll (num dice * probability of success + num dice * probability of failure * probability of success) so he's decently likely to get that TDD result.

Unless the opponent defensive stances. And if he's charging as the first activation of the turn after returning in the opponent's side of the pitch, they know that he's going to have a very difficult time both recovering the ball and generating momentum to score a goal so they don't really need to counterattack. So now you have to hit five 5's on what is effectively 12 dice, which, while not impossible, is also not reliable. So if you miss the charge and only get a tackle, then you're spending 3 influence to steal the ball and kick it back towards your team, giving them an activation to respond to the new ball position while you have no momentum.

Ultimately, Horizon seems similar to Bonesaw in a lot of ways. Yes, there are hypothetical situations in which he could be helpful and have a huge impact on the game, but what he does is subject to a massive amount of variation and if he isn't pulling off his one trick effectively, he's literally doing nothing at all. Meanwhile, Fish already have models like both Sakanas, Greyscales, Shark, and even Jac who can reliably recover the ball, are better at generating momentum, are safer from counter attacks thanks to reach, and all do something else in addition to chasing the ball. I could see him in a Shark line up in Season 3 against a team that is going to just sit the ball in the corner to kill it, but not much else.

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7 hours ago, Ruffy said:

He looks pretty fantastic if he dies at the right time, if he doesn't then not so much. Is there a way for current Fishermen to push him off the pitch?

Well, Hag I guess... I think Don't Get Cocky might allow him to operate a little closer to the sidelines with impunity. 

*edit* No, Hag allows friendlies to make a Dodge. I thought it was everybody gets pushed. I guess the only other thing I can think of is the super silly Siren action, that would force an enemy with a push to attack Horizon and push him off the pitch, and the REALLY odd random responses to forced movements by opponents (like Obulus, etc.).

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5 hours ago, Penguin Warrior said:

 

Unless the opponent defensive stances. And if he's charging as the first activation of the turn after returning in the opponent's side of the pitch, they know that he's going to have a very difficult time both recovering the ball and generating momentum to score a goal 

You may well be right. But  charging a 4/0 that then defensive stances you should get a little over 4 hits on average, which is enough for the momentous tackle, double dodge, so able to score if the model was within 14" of the goal ( and you got the charge in an ideal spot). 

If he is off the table that's a lot of the table and a fair number of models he can tackle and score from. 

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Siren makes an enemy a friendly model and sadly friendly models can not attack one another.

The best way I feel I can describe him currently is "A weaker version of Greyscales with no secondary function".

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1 hour ago, Banjulhu said:

Siren makes an enemy a friendly model and sadly friendly models can not attack one another.

The best way I feel I can describe him currently is "A weaker version of Greyscales with no secondary function".

Of course - I'm an idiot. What I had INITIALLY thought about was something even more convoluted... I guess, at the end of the day, there's no way for him to leave the table voluntarily.

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On 7/20/2018 at 6:52 PM, Adran said:

You may well be right. But  charging a 4/0 that then defensive stances you should get a little over 4 hits on average, which is enough for the momentous tackle, double dodge, so able to score if the model was within 14" of the goal ( and you got the charge in an ideal spot). 

If he is off the table that's a lot of the table and a fair number of models he can tackle and score from. 

You're absolutely right. But again, my point is he's situational. So if you're opponent sits the ball on a model with 4/0 or worst and if that model is near its own goal and if you're able to charge, Horizon could score a goal. But then there are going to be games when he fails his one charge or never quite meets all his conditions and he's going to be completely useless whereas a model like Greyscales, Siren, or Jac still add something to the team. Horizon is a model with high variance in a guild with plenty of more reliable ways of doing exactly what he does.

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We still need to see what the rest of his team look like and what changes are coming to the Fish in season 4. There may very well be something on the way that makes him click.

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I am thinking that Fathom will shake up the Fishermen's line up.  Linked with Angel is really interesting.....

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10 hours ago, mr baron said:

I am thinking that Fathom will shake up the Fishermen's line up.  Linked with Angel is really interesting.....

Since Honour and Harmony are sisters with linked, I wonder if there's any chance that Fathom could be a long-lost relative to Angel. If only we could ask Greyscales!

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I'm liking the looks of her rules, verry much an attacking footballer and capable of the turn one goal run to boot.

Im always a bit iffy with major traits that require one specific model to work as it limits line ups. So the next hope is that Angel gets a small update, just a 2" melee and something halfway decent to replace Tactical Advice (give her Linked Fathom) and she would be set.

Definitely a new toy for Shark.

Corsair's line up has definitely been gutted though.

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2 hours ago, Banjulhu said:

I just a 2" melee and something halfway decent to replace Tactical Advice (give her Linked Fathom)

Giving Angel Linked Fathom seems a bit toos trong to me. Angel can easily score and Fathom recover the ball directly after her goal

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Windfinder’s card is up in the GUBS Facebook group and she is amazing! We’ve seen her front card already (char plays are Eye Spy and a new one that costs two and allows target friendly model to charge/sprint 2” longer and for free), back of her card is the Guild rule, a new rule called Stormwind which knocks enemy models down when she hits them with a char play, and her legendary Perfect course, which is a 6” pulse that counts the number of enemies in the pulse, and then lets you choose that many friendly models in the pulse who can immediately make a 4” dodge.

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