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DrJekyll

Rationale for measurement in ball scatter

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This popped up in another thread ... Could someone please explain to me the practice of measuring the ball scatter from the edge of the base at the interrim position (e.g. where a kicking player places the ball) to the middle of the base at its ending position? This means that the ball has moved [scatter distance] + 15 mm.

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To clarify a bit: The red arrows represent the two different ways of measuring. The blue arrow shows the actual distance that the ball has moved.

scatter.thumb.jpg.b23fab6c000497fcf52afafd3c07edb9.jpg

 

We measure model movement by the first method but for some reason ball scatters by the second.

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I think the Ball is a special case for measurement, as sometimes it’s base is relevant, such as for snapping or calculating interceptions, and sometimes it has no base, like when a player has possession, or when passing.

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The reason ist that when the ball moves, you measure to a "target spot" and then center the ball on that spot. Centering the Ball on the spot then causes the additional distance.

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17 minutes ago, Mootaz said:

The reason ist that when the ball moves, you measure to a "target spot" and then center the ball on that spot. Centering the Ball on the spot then causes the additional distance.

But then you should be measuring target spot to target spot (the blue arrow in the upper image), which in practice is the same as the red arrow in that same image.

I can understand this when measuring from a kicking player to the target spot, but not in the second measurement of scattering.

 

38 minutes ago, Benjo3000 said:

I think the Ball is a special case for measurement, as sometimes it’s base is relevant, such as for snapping or calculating interceptions, and sometimes it has no base, like when a player has possession, or when passing.

I think it would be easier, and make more sense, to always see the ball as having no base, and measure from the middle of the ball marker. (That middle of the ball marker would then have to be clearly indicated, but that wouldn't be difficult to solve for the sculpting geniuses at SGF.)

 

Optionally, treat the ball as an object with the exact size of the 30 mm ball marker and measure as 'normal'. If a player kicks the ball, the kick distance represents how far the outer edge of the ball travels, and thus you can measure as always.

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You don't measure from a spot to a spot. You measure from the ball (which has a base and when measuring from bases you always start measuring at the edge of the base) to a spot. So the second red measurement is correct.

 

If someone said: "measure to a spot 4 inches from Obulus", that is exactly how you would measure that. Edge of base to the spot. In the case of scatters you then place the ball centered on that spot but it doesn't change how you had to measure to determine that spot.

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4 minutes ago, Mootaz said:

You don't measure from a spot to a spot. You measure from the ball (which has a base and when measuring from bases you always start measuring at the edge of the base) to a spot. So the second red measurement is correct.

 

If someone said: "measure to a spot 4 inches from Obulus", that is exactly how you would measure that. Edge of base to the spot. In the case of scatters you then place the ball centered on that spot but it doesn't change how you had to measure to determine that spot.

As I said, I can understand this when measuring from Obulus. What I can't understand is why this also happens when measuring from a ball position to another ball position. First the ball is a spot (when measuring from Obulus), then the ball is a  base (when starting the scatter measurement) and then it is a spot again (when determining final position).

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Actually when going rules lawyer here, I think the rules by implication say that the scatter-measuring practice is wrong. The tell us to measure from the edge of the base only when measuring from a goal post or player – not mentioning the ball marker. So the rules actually make sense, the practice (again, to me) does not. p. 31:

scatter rules.jpg

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4 minutes ago, DrJekyll said:

Actually when going rules lawyer here, I think the rules by implication say that the scatter-measuring practice is wrong. The tell us to measure from the edge of the base only when measuring from a goal post or player – not mentioning the ball marker. So the rules actually make sense, the practice (again, to me) does not. p. 31:

scatter rules.jpg

That refers to a target spot, meaning that you measure from the edge of a base to the spot (centre) of the final ball position.

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I would assume that it stems from allowing a missed pass (etc) to scatter 1" and not be overlapping of the players base. 

Since 1" is less than the balls base width of 30mm there would be overlap. 

However, it is a bit unintuitive for sure. 

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I agree it's a bit murky. I'm pretty sure the rules as written are the second image (1" + half base)  a scatter off a model. So edge of model to center of ball. (Barrf).

But then to complicate things more, you would use the first example for a  scatter (1") when you're measuring from a ball marker to another ball marker so measuring from center ball to center ball.

so scatter from ball to ball (ex: kickoff, kick to space, throw in) 1-6" scatter. Scatter from model to ball (ex: ball carrier is KD, missed pass) 1-6" + half a base scatter.

*Shrug* it's not THAT bad. Like coming back half a base over deployment. It is a turn off when yer learning but once ya know it's fine.

 

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe it's because if you miss a shot on the goal post, and roll a 1 for scatter distance, you end up putting the ball right in the middle of the post. So the extra 15mm was added to avoid that.

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I only just want to see it changed to one or the other. Too confusing for players new or old...sometime especially "old players new to the game" :P 

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The excerpt is from page 30 in the rules. Every other movement is using the leading edge of the model. If you try to do that with a 1" scatter the bases overlap. In your method, in order to be consistent you would measure 1" from the losing model and try placing the FORWARD edge of the ball marker there. Unfortunately, it won't fit because 30 mm > 1 inch.

Capture.PNG

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7 hours ago, Priesmal said:

The excerpt is from page 30 in the rules. Every other movement is using the leading edge of the model. If you try to do that with a 1" scatter the bases overlap. In your method, in order to be consistent you would measure 1" from the losing model and try placing the FORWARD edge of the ball marker there. Unfortunately, it won't fit because 30 mm > 1 inch.

 

 

Repeating myself here:

On 2018-04-13 at 10:38 AM, DrJekyll said:

As I said, I can understand this when measuring from Obulus. What I can't understand is why this also happens when measuring from a ball position to another ball position. First the ball is a spot (when measuring from Obulus), then the ball is a  base (when starting the scatter measurement) and then it is a spot again (when determining final position).

 

And:

On 2018-04-13 at 12:20 PM, DrJekyll said:

Actually when going rules lawyer here, I think the rules by implication say that the scatter-measuring practice is wrong. The tell us to measure from the edge of the base only when measuring from a goal post or player – not mentioning the ball marker. So the rules actually make sense, the practice (again, to me) does not. p. 31:

 

 

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