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Unsportsmanlike But Legal

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So here is my 2 cents.

There is a problem. The problem is that you are trying to play a 3 goal team. Or trying to play a 6 takeout team. And cannot adapt.

These extremes are just that. Extremes. If you want them to be balanced too bad. No one cares about your all football team. We play with ALL the rules. If you want to have a super star balls to the wall team of all strikers, don't freakin cry when they kill the ball. The game is BOTH murder and soccer so suck it up princess.

 

This is an old conversation that is tiring.

 

Play a lineup that can adapt and you will not get pigeonholed. Period. Play a hyper focused team and get "countered". Don't cry.

Last game I had to score 3 goals with my brewers because I was getting out beat by farmers.... gotter dun. (Hooper's got a tackle on 2 boys with reach. Plus that damn cat can score like no one's business. 66% shots WITHOUT bonus time. )

Last game I had to lay some beats with gears because they killed the ball.... gotter dun boys. (tooled up and deleted sexy Velo for 3 damage a hit. Plus a free charge. That's 15-18 dmg! I made em play by the side and I have a LOT of push dodges!)

So quit whining and start adapting. Play a 2-2 team if you cannot think outside the box. But know that when your one trick pony gets shut down it's your own damn fault for having only one trick. Learn to adapt.

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5 minutes ago, CrazyBlaine said:

So here is my 2 cents.

Probably not the best tone and phrasing, but the message is the right one.

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45 minutes ago, CrazyBlaine said:

Last game I had to score 3 goals with my brewers because I was getting out beat by farmers.... gotter dun. (Hooper's got a tackle on 2 boys with reach. Plus that damn cat can score like no one's business. 66% shots WITHOUT bonus time. )

Beer and Farms are about the only things that make up Saskatchewan. It's no wonder you won this game.

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1 hour ago, CrazyBlaine said:

So here is my 2 cents.

There is a problem. The problem is that you are trying to play a 3 goal team. Or trying to play a 6 takeout team. And cannot adapt.

These extremes are just that. Extremes. If you want them to be balanced too bad. No one cares about your all football team. We play with ALL the rules. If you want to have a super star balls to the wall team of all strikers, don't freakin cry when they kill the ball. The game is BOTH murder and soccer so suck it up princess.

[...]

Or you could put it this way:

 

"I suspect that the main problem here is that you are trying to play an all football team or an all take out team. These are extremes, and in most situations find it difficult to adapt. The extremes become vulnerable to extreme counters, such as hiding the ball, and struggle when facing such tactics.

I’d suggest you try to play a more balanced team, with a 2–2 strategy. A more adaptable line up will make you less vulnerable. Playing one trick ponys can be fun at times, but you must be aware of the risks involved."

 

 

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It's important to note that, though some of us have been through these conversations multiple times, as this game we love continues to grow, there will be new players facing those old frustrations and questions for the first time.

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1 hour ago, Breaking_Play said:

It's important to note that, though some of us have been through these conversations multiple times, as this game we love continues to grow, there will be new players facing those old frustrations and questions for the first time.

This - so much this.

Guild Ball is a game with a lot of nuanced play and I try teaching it to newer players in "stages"

For example, after helping someone figure out how to plan goal runs that discussion evolves into "sometimes it better to hold off on that goal until later in the turn" or how leaving an enemy model on low health last activation impacts their next turn.

And those are two pretty basic examples.

I know it's hard for us long time players (more so when you get to be my age ;) ) but try being the guy that helps someone new gain a deeper understanding of this awesome game.

Oh and also bug Sherwin about sharing Fangtooths fate with us.

 

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2 hours ago, kryzak said:

I wished that the rant post didn't get posted.  The debate and conversation was going pretty well until that.  

Let’s all move on with the good debate safe in the knowledge that I’m watching, and while I try I play nice I am in the end a tyrant and will act as such if any further impoliteness occurs :D

I’m still trying to figure out all the ball-as-resource stuff. Last time I killed it, I did it with silence, on the opposing spigot, and started a fight I couldn’t win... :P

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Hi!  New Guild Ball player here, but old hat when it comes to games with highly asymmetrical strategy.

You frequently see discussions this flavor about fighting games, especially when new games or new characters are released that have different playstyles.  Simplified, there's a concept of a "low-tier/mid-tier monster" where a character has a reasonably low skill floor and very high damage output and can dominate in lower-skill level play.  However as you advance, you don't see that character winning tournaments because they don't have the tools to be competitive at the top levels of play.  But it does cause an initial frustration with new players who pick up a new game and repeatedly get thrashed by for example, a high-damage grappler.

I think this is analogous to the original frustration.  A goal scores 1/3rd of the victory points required to win (And Street Fighter's Zangief can do about that percentage damage to your health bar with a pile driver).  And the teams that can score goals and do it easier are going to have a faster path to victory.  Unfortunately, the only way to learn how to stop goals (or getting thrown with a pile driver) is to play against them, lose a few (or several) times, and then adjust your strategy.  The only ways to figure out a way to overcome a team that kills the ball, is to play against it and alter your ineffective strategies.

12 hours ago, CrazyBlaine said:

Plus that damn cat can score like no one's business. 66% shots WITHOUT bonus time.

As a proud Kick Off Brewers player, this post is hilarious.

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4 hours ago, Mako said:

Let’s all move on with the good debate safe in the knowledge that I’m watching, and while I try I play nice I am in the end a tyrant and will act as such if any further impoliteness occurs :D

I’m still trying to figure out all the ball-as-resource stuff. Last time I killed it, I did it with silence, on the opposing spigot, and started a fight I couldn’t win... :P

It's good to have you here. :) 

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To get the conversation going again I think what is being brought up here is a legitimate point.  In guildball there are two paths to victory that do not have to interact with each other to win.  You can sore goals with out ever killing a model, and you can kill models without ever scoring goals.  This creates a situation where it is beneficial to try to deny the opponents path to victory and there is little repercussion for doing so.  That is bound to create negative play experiences.  Is there a way to make the two paths less independent from each other?  The only thing I could think of with out drastically changing the game would be to require a certain number of both goals and take outs, but I don’t really like the idea.

Also, on a side not you cannot tell a person what is and is not a negative play experience.  You can disagree with them, but nothing you say is going to change their experience of a situation.

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3 hours ago, SonofMars said:

...This creates a situation where it is beneficial to try to deny the opponents path to victory and there is little repercussion for doing so.  That is bound to create negative play experiences.  Is there a way to make the two paths less independent from each other? 

I mean, it might be just me but have you tried building or playing a 6 that isn't blanked as easy because you're happy playing a 4-1 or 2-2 game? 

Even shark can muster up a 2-2 if you see the ball stall coming.

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31 minutes ago, cfcbaker said:

I mean, it might be just me but have you tried building or playing a 6 that isn't blanked as easy because you're happy playing a 4-1 or 2-2 game? 

Even shark can muster up a 2-2 if you see the ball stall coming.

If I am understanding your comment correctly I agree, you will always run the chance of getting blanked.  However, I think the discussion is not necessarily about getting blanked, but about the game mechanics encouraging non-intereaction.  I think it is completely possible to play a game where you win without ever interacting with the opponent, or at least put yourself in such a strong position that even when you do interact you have a huge advantage.  Shark scoring at the bottom of turn one then again at the top of two popping legendary and running away is a good example of this.  The Smoke and Ballista gunlines are another.  This mechanical rewarding of non interactive play is the problem I see as leading to this frustration.

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My main problem is with 2 things:

- Qualifying ball killing as unsportsmanlike: it is an integral part of the game and there are a lot of ways to combat it. 

- Demanding a change to the rules because people don't have the experience to deal with it. 

It is a different kettle of fish if the original poster would have asked advice on how to tackle ball killing. I'm pretty sure he would have gotten a ton of tips. 

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24 minutes ago, SonofMars said:

If I am understanding your comment correctly I agree, you will always run the chance of getting blanked.  However, I think the discussion is not necessarily about getting blanked, but about the game mechanics encouraging non-intereaction.  I think it is completely possible to play a game where you win without ever interacting with the opponent, or at least put yourself in such a strong position that even when you do interact you have a huge advantage.  Shark scoring at the bottom of turn one then again at the top of two popping legendary and running away is a good example of this.  The Smoke and Ballista gunlines are another.  This mechanical rewarding of non interactive play is the problem I see as leading to this frustration.

1) There are tons of games outside GB where it is gun line vs melee oriented rushers. Smoke nor Ballista aren't dominating the tournament scene. Is it unpleasant that first turn? Sure! But GB is a very difficult game to keeping running away from your opponent.  

2) Shark: Your opponent killing off a player bottom/top of a turn is also not very pleasant. You have to plan accordingly. 

Yes there things that won't be fun in a game. Your opponent will try to outfox you, as will you. If you want a game where everybody rushes towards each other, meets in the middle and you roll a ton of dice to decide who win, there are other options. 

 

 

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You are right, there will always be negative experiences in a game.  As you said ball killing is an integral part of guildball.  I would argue though that the fact the original poster is losing players because of it warrants a deeper discussion of the mechanics behind it.  Maybe all that discussion leads to is yea that's a hard thing to get use to but it's just what you have to do.  Even if that is the case the discussion is the important part in making sure the player base has the best possible chance to continue to grow rather than shrinking as the original poster is experiencing.  Plus, just because ball killing is an integral part of guildball at this point does not mean it has to continue to be so.  Perhaps there is a better way to structure the game that would lead to less ball killing, but if these types of conversations never happen then that change is never found.

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I think there'd have to be a huge rework of the game to make ball stall invalid but not make it Shark (and other 3-0 teams) ridiculously OP. Not even worth it imo. I think the most similar games to GB are fighting games, both when I think strategically and in the fact you'll only keep a smaller percentage of the players long term because there's a pretty steep section of the learning curve. 

You're players are hitting one of those steep sections of the power curve. If they have the drive to learn how to punish the strategy they'll make it through just like the rest of us, if not they'll dip. A huge rules change to accommodate low level play that mucg probably isn't going to come, and if it does it won't be quick. 

Saveyour player base by getting better and helping work out strategies to get around this tactic. You mentioned rats for yourself. It's important to realize they are likely topping off at 9" threats on ball inside of a single activation (threatening to get to the ball is the most important part, and these numbers are pretty low). You'll want to set up a trap where if they hide the ball you get advantageous trades on takeouts with Graves and Scourge

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1 hour ago, SonofMars said:

You are right, there will always be negative experiences in a game.  As you said ball killing is an integral part of guildball.  I would argue though that the fact the original poster is losing players because of it warrants a deeper discussion of the mechanics behind it.  Maybe all that discussion leads to is yea that's a hard thing to get use to but it's just what you have to do.  Even if that is the case the discussion is the important part in making sure the player base has the best possible chance to continue to grow rather than shrinking as the original poster is experiencing.  Plus, just because ball killing is an integral part of guildball at this point does not mean it has to continue to be so.  Perhaps there is a better way to structure the game that would lead to less ball killing, but if these types of conversations never happen then that change is never found.

Judging by the activity on Longshanks I don't see GB losing players as a whole. Individual player groups might suffer but that is with all games.

Early in season 3 when goal scoring captains like Shark and Midas were ruling the waves we had the inverse of this discussion: players complaining about goal scoring being too powerful. And in comparison with season 2 season 3 is still a lot more centered on goals.

Also I am not knocking the original posters message but more his tone. There is a lot of ground between "I am experiencing something I can't solve" and "this game should change one of it's core mechanics because of it". 

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4 hours ago, HuggyTheBear said:

 

Early in season 3 when goal scoring captains like Shark and Midas were ruling the waves we had the inverse of this discussion: players complaining about goal scoring being too powerful. 

I think there was a time the 2 threads on generals front page were a Shark and Midas 3 goals complaint thread and a ball killing complaint thread. What a time to be alive

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I disagree with the OP that there needs to be core rule changes but for the sake of discussion I am curious as to what people could think of to make ball stall less of a thing. I have played shark and felt the pain and I have played butchers and been outfoxed trying to hide the ball. With roughly 40 tournament games and well over 100 casual games, I think we have a pretty balanced system of if you want 4 points, then come try and take the ball, where you will probably be taken out for your efforts. 

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Well the first and most obvious thing to consider is that if the ball is always alive, goal-scorers become much more powerful. Considering that, and some just for fun crapshooting here's a crack at a change.

If a model begins and ends its activation in possession of the ball, they lose possession of the ball and it scatters. Add rules text to the "Striker" character type that they ignore this rule.

Alternatively, they may have to pass a TN Test using their KICK dice to see if they retain control of the ball.

This heavily punishes keeping the ball on one model and running them around. If it scatters farther away from the model who's chasing it down it could be frustrating but it also makes it risky to hold the ball near the edges, as a scatter in that direction sends it back into the middle.

That doesn't account for the power boost killing teams will need to keep up, and I don't think it's even possible to introduce a universal rule that addresses that. I think it comes down to individual model balance. Perhaps introducing a ball-killer role, whereas some models will specialize in chasing down and taking out the ball carrier before they can score, while being abysmal ball handlers themselves.

What it comes down to for me, is that if the game isn't fun. Change it and find your fun.

Steamforged isn't going to come battering down your door if you don't play with their rules. Try out your own rules, models, or guilds.

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Some of the better ball-holding models are Strikers too, so that wouldn't necessarily stop ball killing, it would just punish it very hard on some teams that might need it. For ball-killing to not be a thing, I'd think there'd need to be some benefit to moving it around that outweighed the chance the opposing team could get a hold of it, and you'd have to be careful that it not be something ball-scoring lists couldn't also take strong advantage of. All I can think is a teamwork action that gave the passing model some kind of damage buff, but the only "balling" team that doesn't really help is Shark's - Corsair and Engineers would love that. [EDIT: And Midas and Blackheart and Blacksmiths and Masons - dang, pretty much everyone but the teams that really, truly need ball killing would love that. Clearly it's not the correct answer.]

Another thing is that ball-killers will sometimes unsnap once they're positioned properly, particularly against Morts and the Fish because of Lure, Seduce, and Puppet Master. The scatter would just make unsnapping the thing to do if you wanted the ball killed.

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