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2 hours ago, malladin.ben said:

I think people are getting tied up on the "dull" tag as being a strong criticism, and I don't think it is, it's just an obvious first reaction to her card. 

I'm totally guilty of beating the dull drum. I understand your point. My counter, and its mild, is that all models really have two functions. One, and the most important one, is to be an effective tool for winning games. Gutter is definitely that. The other is to be an exciting product that makes the customer want to buy it. Gutter's rules let her down in that regard (her godawful insulting icky fluff even more so). It's a valid criticism to point this out, even if she's still an effective piece. 

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2 hours ago, foolwiththefez said:

I'm totally guilty of beating the dull drum. I understand your point. My counter, and its mild, is that all models really have two functions. One, and the most important one, is to be an effective tool for winning games. Gutter is definitely that. The other is to be an exciting product that makes the customer want to buy it. Gutter's rules let her down in that regard (her godawful insulting icky fluff even more so). It's a valid criticism to point this out, even if she's still an effective piece. 

Here i think her absolutely THICC mini serves the second purpose :o:P

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On 27/03/2018 at 6:24 PM, NoSorumbo said:

I am no top 100 player, but I am decently ranked in the community.  That said, I've played 8 games with her so far and have the following observations:

She seems to have a place in both Ox and Fillet lists, and 1) her damage output is pretty reliable, but you have to think about her activation as an investment into the long game, especially if you are planning to use grappling hook, 2) that over extension is very possible with her, especially against opponent lists where they have some beaters on the team, and 3) the extra MP on a kill is really relevant on a well set up turn.

1) Investment:  Depending on the team I was playing against, I would chose to actively load her on turn 1 with the intention to Jog/Sprint and Grapple, then get one attack in for most likely 1-2 damage.  Generally, I would do this to a team that I know couldn't hit back hard (Shark Fish, Engineers-ish, etc).  Yes, I would only get 1 momentum out of 4 influence, but my Butchers are engaged turn 1.  I would then use the rest of my team, and especially Ox to position for her to be within the aura on the top of turn 2.  If I had Shank and Brisket on my team, I could easily get a crowd up set up on that one player at +1-2. As such, the one thing I wanted to do in my game plan, which is closing the gap and killing, is perfectly set up at the top of 2.  She would then be attacking at Tact5+1 or 2, and hitting 2-3+1 damage under Ox's Aura, which can total to 12-16 damage, plus 1-2 from the last turn, or 4 momentum and 2 for the kill (6 momentum).  To me, the heavy cost of turn 1 sets up for turn 2 return. Just saying as well, the anatomical, buffs from the team, and crowd outs with 2" melees made wrapping (and tons of momentum) easy in most cases.

2) Over-extension: Keep in mind though that if the opponent can punish you for overextending, then don't (if you are playing against a beaty team or the opponent is playing cage-y).  As well, I usually kept this activation as a late activation with the hopes that I could get away with just a jog and chain grab and 2 attacks (2 momentum).

3) 2 MP on a Kill: If a stacked Gutter can kill a player, that is 6 momentum.  I usually pretended that this momentum was immediately lost and spent it fast on crucial healing, counters, and defensive stances, especially given that if the Butcher's momentum train starts, the rest of my team could easily generate 4-6 more momentum

Some lists I've play tested are:

Ox, Princess, Boiler, Shank, Vet Gutter, Vet Brisket, Flex

Ox, Truffles, Boar, Shank, Vet Gutter, Flex

Fillet, Princess, Boiler, Shank, Vet Gutter, Vet Ox, Flex

Fillet, Truffles, Boar, Shank, Vet Gutter, Vet Ox (4x 2" melee!)

 

Conclusion: Thus, after playing a few games, she almost always makes my list just based on her utility and reliability.  Interestingly, she has allowed me to also feel more comfortable taking Truffles and Boar in lieu of Boiler and Princess in my 10, thereby less competition for resources and highly efficient lists.  For example, below are the average allocations I have done with decent success:

Tournament 10: Ox, Fillet, Truffles, Boar, Shank, Vet Gutter, Vet Ox, Vet Brisket, Meathook, Tenderizer

0-1 Ox, 0-1 Truffles, 1 Boar, 3 Shank, 4 Gutter, 2-3 Meathook/Brisket

6 Fillet, 0-1 Truffles, 1 Boar, 0-4 Brisket, 0-4 Gutter, 1 Vet Ox

 

So, does Vet Gutter alone fix the guild? IMO, no.  The guild still seems to struggle in general.  However, she does change how I use the guild.  Thus, I am happy for the new character.  I think that it was a unfair expectation that Gutter would be the key to elevating Butchers to higher levels of play.

I've also been considering the no Boiler/Princess lost with Vet. Gutter coming in - Fillet might miss Swift Stance and easy Bleed access, but I think VG lets me get Truffles back in

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On 4/18/2018 at 1:31 PM, Pinball said:

I've also been considering the no Boiler/Princess lost with Vet. Gutter coming in - Fillet might miss Swift Stance and easy Bleed access, but I think VG lets me get Truffles back in

I agree.  Although I think you also gain things like clock pressure, a 2" Melee with easier to access KDs, and more efficiency.  I've still been play testing it, and can't decide one way or another, but my tournament 10 is now:

Ox, Fillet, Princess, Boiler, Vet Brisket, Vet Gutter, Vet Ox, Boar, Shank, Meathook

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On 4/23/2018 at 6:08 PM, Slothrop said:

Just as an alternate perspective, vGutter is fun for me cause she makes me feel like Ox is a viable captain at top level play, and Ox is one of my favorite captains. She's fun cause she lets me have fun :P

GUILD BALL IS NOT FOR FUN :angry: (just kidding)! 

Good point!

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