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On 30/03/2018 at 12:11 AM, malladin.ben said:

The thing to take into account here is that whilst most butchers players are satisfied, even happy, with gutter, there's the thought that shes a bit bland or uninteresting. I think this stems from the fact that she is very little different to her original version. The only really new thing she does is the extra jog forward and even that isn't much different to other things we have in guild. For some there may also be a bit of disappointment that she lost scything blow and didn't get anything back equivalent in return.

Decimate, on the other hand does something that feels very brewer's yet adds something completely new to the guild, something we've only really seen previously with Hammer - the ability to sgive people around and chase after them with a dodge - it's a really interesting mechanic that fits nicely within the brewer's colour pie yet adds something new to their play. That and changing the 4/1 mobile model to a 3/1 tough hide just feels right for her.

It's not so much that decimate is much better than gutter (although she is at least a bit), it's that she is something different, new and both a brewer and decimate at the same time. Gutter just feels like a colour swap from purple to red in comparison.

It's not the "better" it's the "interesting".

 

I think this sums it up well.

Decimate breaks the current design ethos of the Brewer's by bringing buyable dodges to the table, which instantly ups their football game considerably. Makes for an exciting addition for the underdog Brewers. 

Vet Gutter needs to be looked at differently though..  you guys will lose access to og Gutter at some point soonish, new Gutter is a straight swap for the originals role. Which, even when Chain Grab was broken, her most important role was to reliably do some momentous damage to get things rolling. 

So the loss if Union perhaps won't be felt so hard? Brewer's don't have anything to directly replace Harry's aweinspirung Hat on turn.

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3 hours ago, CurlyPaul said:

So the loss if Union perhaps won't be felt so hard? Brewer's don't have anything to directly replace Harry's aweinspirung Hat on turn.

Unless the new minor guild has access to snared then I will feel it hard ;). My only union pick since her errata has been minx. She makes every Hunters and Butchers squad without thought. (Edit I have been weaning myself off her lately...).

On the plus side I do get to rekindle the season 1 relationship I had between Ox and Gutter.

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I'm finding it hard to put her into a 6 with Ox. I've fallen back in love with the Boar beatdown (because everyone has forgotten about him) and so my current Ox line up of Ox, Princess, Boiler, Meathook, vBrisket, Boar is lots of fun. An extra 2" in there would be nice, but who to lose? Lose Boar, then I'm 2" neutral and a lot less efficient, lose Boiler and I lose Bleed, easy 2 DMG and Princess fun times, lose vBrisket and who is scoring goals?, lose Meathook...LOLS like that will happen. So I'm struggling to put her in.

I think she is easier to put into my Fillet line up as she is better than Shank in some ways, but there's no easy swap here. Unlike vDecimate who is basically the first model picked, then Spigot1, then Friday (because Spigot) then swing slot. 

I wish Gutter2 had TAC 6, did Bleed, or still had Life Drinker...something. She may be quintessentially Butcher but she's not reliable enough or fun enough to get easily into the 6. I need to play her more. But she feels like a situational pick against certain teams right now.

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5 hours ago, EpicChris said:

I'm finding it hard to put her into a 6 with Ox. I've fallen back in love with the Boar beatdown (because everyone has forgotten about him) and so my current Ox line up of Ox, Princess, Boiler, Meathook, vBrisket, Boar is lots of fun. An extra 2" in there would be nice, but who to lose? Lose Boar, then I'm 2" neutral and a lot less efficient, lose Boiler and I lose Bleed, easy 2 DMG and Princess fun times, lose vBrisket and who is scoring goals?, lose Meathook...LOLS like that will happen. So I'm struggling to put her in.

I think she is easier to put into my Fillet line up as she is better than Shank in some ways, but there's no easy swap here. Unlike vDecimate who is basically the first model picked, then Spigot1, then Friday (because Spigot) then swing slot. 

I wish Gutter2 had TAC 6, did Bleed, or still had Life Drinker...something. She may be quintessentially Butcher but she's not reliable enough or fun enough to get easily into the 6. I need to play her more. But she feels like a situational pick against certain teams right now.

Brisket is the easy swap out in that team for me. If you want that opportunistic goal, Gutter's probably as good. You lose the extra influence, but if you're not receiving that can be far from guaranteed. Maybe swap gutter in for Brisket when you're kicking?

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I have been enjoying Captain, Dog, Boiler, Meathook, Shank, vGutter.
Pretty all round stuff. 13 inf, good redundancy if someone dies, at the cost of some furious efficiency I suppose. And overall good speed and 4/1 defensive stats. 

Briskets instead instead of anyone if the situation seems appropriate (been facing a lot of countercharges lately, and Shank handles those a lot easier than briskets). vBrisket actually does a lot of damage too. 

However, one of my biggest enjoyments with the guild is how changeable my butchers 6 are. It changes basically every game for me depending on the situation, as opposed to playing Masons or Engineers where you kinda can get bored of the same models every game. 

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The more we see of the Exiled, the more boring vet Gutter looks.

The other exiled have character plays they'll probably use most turns (and more than one of them), conversely Gutter has a character play we're told  "is not an ability Butcher coaches should expect to use every turn". She needed another character play, or something that makes her more unique, like the other exiles published to date have.

Perhaps Steamforged were sending a message with the blog images they used... 

 

Exiles.jpg

Exiles.jpg.f93d576017ca3ea95822a34f561c0abc.jpg

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7 hours ago, Igpus said:

The more we see of the Exiled, the more boring vet Gutter looks.

The other exiled have character plays they'll probably use most turns (and more than one of them), conversely Gutter has a character play we're told  "is not an ability Butcher coaches should expect to use every turn". She needed another character play, or something that makes her more unique, like the other exiles published to date have.

Perhaps Steamforged were sending a message with the blog images they used... 

 

Exiles.jpg

Exiles.jpg.f93d576017ca3ea95822a34f561c0abc.jpg

Hahah, true enough with the images. :D

Also I agree. 

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I'm new to this game, but just reading the steamforged blog post for vgutter was completely different to the other posts for decimate/minx. All I got from it was that the new model is pretty and that Gutter was basically the same as before. Which is really quite different to the design ethos they used for the other exiles... vGutter designed under the "archetypal" butcher hat but the other veterans look to have been used as  breathing space and team playstyle expansion as well as having stat boosts. 

Not a terrible model but also doesn't bring any excitement at all which is the biggest failing. Feels like a missed opportunity and a mechanic with VPs for takeouts would have been cooler than MPs. The model just doesn't seem to stand out within its own team, let alone versus other veterans. 

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2 hours ago, C0deb1ue said:

Feels like a missed opportunity and a mechanic with VPs for takeouts would have been cooler than MPs

This would be too good, for a Guild that Is best at the Take-out game, the Guilds that have a VP bonus for that get less Take-outs/when they do Its more Important.

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29 minutes ago, Kueller said:

This would be too good, for a Guild that Is best at the Take-out game, the Guilds that have a VP bonus for that get less Take-outs/when they do Its more Important.

Fair enough but the MP trait is just not something you are going to particularly work around as it isn't enough of a bonus and I can't see multiple takedowns ever being a thing - seems very situational

Perhaps they should have made the kick stat 8" or grapple hook less curtailed generally (understandably a 6" repo is nuts). At the moment though regardless of what fun things you could do with grapple hook, it's only a useful disengage/ball stripper if your opponent has nothing useful on it's playbook (or is 1" reach i guess) for parting blows and also relies on your opponents model placement a tonne as it's directly toward. Would have maybe helped the non-take-down game a little if they had given her  a little more oomph or less restriction.

Also the extended threat seriously reduces the chance that she can kill her distant target anyway as theres only 2 influence left.

She feels like she was over-neutered? or just incredibly safe.. I guess we can see if they have done that with any other exiles...

 

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5 minutes ago, C0deb1ue said:

Fair enough but the MP trait is just not something you are going to particularly work around as it isn't enough of a bonus and I can't see multiple takedowns ever being a thing - seems very situational

Perhaps they should have made the kick stat 8" or grapple hook less curtailed generally (understandably a 6" repo is nuts). At the moment though regardless of what fun things you could do with grapple hook, it's only a useful disengage/ball stripper if your opponent has nothing useful on it's playbook (or is 1" reach i guess) for parting blows and also relies on your opponents model placement a tonne as it's directly toward. Would have maybe helped the non-take-down game a little if they had given her  a little more oomph or less restriction.

Also the extended threat seriously reduces the chance that she can kill her distant target anyway as theres only 2 influence left.

She feels like she was over-neutered? or just incredibly safe.. I guess we can see if they have done that with any other exiles...

 

I have used her four times now and I think she Is really good and a good addition to my lineup.

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3 minutes ago, Kueller said:

I have used her four times now and I think she Is really good and a good addition to my lineup.

Oh cool. What did she do in your games? 

would be interested to know if she gained many extra MPs in practice? maybe scored a goal or chased people down?

or is she a good person to leave the ball on due to counter-attack stuff?

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Just now, C0deb1ue said:

Oh cool. What did she do in your games?

She has gotten me five Take-outs In four games with Fillet, vBrisket, Truffles, vGutter, Meathook and Minx.

I have tried for two Goals In my games with her but dice have let me down.

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2 minutes ago, Kueller said:

She has gotten me five Take-outs In four games with Fillet, vBrisket, Truffles, vGutter, Meathook and Minx.

I have tried for two Goals In my games with her but dice have let me down.

so seems consistent with one takedown a game on average (so one extra momentum from fan favourite). That is some unlucky dice for Goals.. How was the extra jog?

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2 minutes ago, C0deb1ue said:

 

so seems consistent with one takedown a game on average (so one extra momentum from fan favourite). That is some unlucky dice for Goals.. How was the extra jog?

I have gotten the extra Jog with setup but requires careful placement to do cause a KD, I have used It to get Into Goal range.

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I can't stress enough how important I think 2" melee is in Butchers, particularly with reliable momentous damage.  Anatomical precision, 2" melee, and 2/4 INF is a great package.

Priesmal and I have had this conversation a lot, as we play in the same shop weekly. =)  I agree 100% that she's not as exciting as the other Exiles we've seen so far, but I think she's awesome and brings something to the table no other Butchers player does.  As a Butchers player at the tourney I attended last weekend put it, "she may not be the hero Butchers want, but she's the hero they need."

I don't necessarily agree, though, that she and Boiler are overlapping models.  Boiler is a great model, and so is vGutter, but any similarity in playbook or comparison for damage output has to be considered through the lenses of:

1) Against 1" models (still most models in the game), vGutter is immune to counterattacks.  She also cannot be attacked herself without the opponent risking a (very dangerous) counterattack in return, except by Thresher, Mallet, or someone with Glut Mass.  Boiler has a HUGE problem in that he can be KD'ed or worse pushed out of melee on a counterattack, leaving you with a stack of now mostly useless influence (sure, mark a target, but you're not doing prime damage).  If Gutter somehow gets pushed out, at least the influence isn't wasted- she can grappling hook back in.  Not the BEST use of INF, but it's better than losing it.

2) Unpredictable movement models cannot escape vGutter.  If she base-to-bases them, they're getting hit at least once.  Boiler just has to watch them go (realistically, he doesn't go after those targets, but vGutter gives you the critical ability to do so).

3) vGutter doesn't need the dog as setup.  Unless Princess is already in position, Boiler is a sub-optimal first activation.  vGutter just takes the influence and goes.  If you want to add Ox or Meathook to the calculation, Boiler now needs to go a minimum of third in the turn to get his best work done.  vGutter can go first or second very easily and still be extremely effective.

4) It's niche, but if you can swing it, I really, really like the idea of charging someone on low health with a properly set up vetGutter, wrapping, using the low column wrap damage to delete the victim and taking the chain grab with your first pass through the playbook to grapple into somebody new and get two swings on the unsuspecting second victim.  It won't happen often, but when it does, it allows Butchers an efficiency they've rarely had in terms of applying damage to multiple targets.

I agree with Priesmal that she's not nearly as cool as vetCimate and or vetMinx, and I feel bad for Butchers players about that.  She's also probably not as good as either of them objectively, but I think she does as much for her team as they do for theirs, even if she won't be an auto-include in every lineup- what she brings to the table has been sorely missed in Butchers.

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10 hours ago, foolwiththefez said:

Quote from the Blog: "With the Exiles, we’ve been focussing a lot on simple and flavourful abilities that are fun to play with."

I really feel they missed that mark with vGutter. 

I definitely agree that this doesn't seem to fit the design ethos used for vGutter. She's functional not fun. 

Momentous damage on a 2" stick is "simple" but not "fun to play with" in the sense they are implying or the inventiveness they have shown on the other exiles.

She is butcher flavourful, but so much so that she doesn't even stand out from the rest of them in an interesting way. 

The overall impression is just that she's overwhelmingly bland.

but damn do I like the miniature.. which almost makes it worse

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9 hours ago, JacctheInsomniac said:

Is there an existing power within the Butchers that's preventing vGutter from being more interesting? Or interesting at all?

Like, as an Example Jaecar is why the Hunter's will never have Tooled Up.

not sure!

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11 hours ago, JacctheInsomniac said:

Is there an existing power within the Butchers that's preventing vGutter from being more interesting? Or interesting at all?

Like, as an Example Jaecar is why the Hunter's will never have Tooled Up.

No, I don't think so. Jaecar has relevant character plays, dodges and push-dodges on his playbook that make using him interesting - you;re doing something other than just dealing momentous damage. This Gutter pretty much just deals momentous damage. Not that butchers don't want momentous damage to be dealt, and she deals it pretty damn reliably with a 2" melee zone, but every model in the butchers line up deals momentous damage, so it's just not something to write home about.

I think people are getting tied up on the "dull" tag as being a strong criticism, and I don't think it is, it's just an obvious first reaction to her card. I had a discussion on twitter with Rich from DTTB about how we communicate this and the relevance of the expression "everything before the but is bullshit". After this conversation I also heard an evaluation of a card on a LCG podcast I listen to (nothing directly relating to GB) as "unexciting but damned effective" and I think that is a better way to describe her, and hopefully would allow the criticisms to fade away a bit and for us to focus on the effectiveness and start spitballing some ideas on how to get the most out of her.

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1 hour ago, malladin.ben said:

start spitballing some ideas on how to get the most out of her.

Well, you give her influence, she does damage and gives momentum. :D

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