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I was hoping for something that would give our team a bonus VP for a take out, like Gravedigger. Unsure if that would be too strong in Butchers but Farmers, Hunters, Morticians, Ratcatchers all have bonus VP take out options. Butchers need it personally. But as I said, maybe it was too strong...

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I think any number of small tweaks would make us all excited. Grappling Hook being a dodge (or just specifically not triggering parting blows) would be amazing. Maybe a push/double dodge on her 5th column. Wouldn't to have to be a huge change. As is, she's... serviceable. She's a nice looking models with ok rules. Balanced. Will see play time, especially in casual games. But any minor adjustment could make her either much more fun or much stronger without being too strong. 

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I like her. There said it. 

She doesn't steamroll the hell out of players etc as has been mentioned above but I still feel she is solid enough. I can see some cool interactions where she has engaged someone, buys an attack and grapples herself further forward off GB into an unsuspecting player that the opponent was trying to shield/ keep out of the way. As people have mentioned, seems corner case, but hey might be some future tech that works well with our Minor guild dual players... Imagine vOx pushing peoples everywhere while the rest of the team are all pulling themselves towards players...

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As someone who plays Hunters and gets most of my points off of Seenah Bear Hug takeouts, Gutter would be an auto include for me in every list. 

The abilty to potentially win the game with 4 takeouts instead of 6 makes anything else on the rest of her card irrelevant imo. Add 2” melee, potential 20” goal threat and anatomical precision? That’s just a bonus.

Anytime you have a chance to get more VP with less effort, it’s a good thing. Gutter doesn’t even need set up, really. She gets it doing Butcher things.

But, I don’t know. I don’t play Butchers.

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2 minutes ago, The Glorious One said:

The abilty to potentially win the game with 4 takeouts instead of 6 makes anything else on the rest of her card irrelevant imo. Add 2” melee, potential 20” goal threat and anatomical precision? That’s just a bonus.

MP != VP

Fan Favourite gives additional momentum, so with 4 takeouts you will still be at 8 VPs regardless.  

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11 hours ago, Tiberius said:

Lets all just step back, take a breath, and look at how damn THICC the model is.

DSCN9674.jpg

I suspect that's because the studio painted what was supposed to be trousers as flesh.

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So I've taken yesterday to digest what vGutter is. What she isn't is exciting, she doesn't have any real jank (Though grappling hook offers some interesting interactions).

She is a lot of good for the Butchers, she's 2/4, she has a very reliable playbook and she has a good threat. If you're playing Butchers you're not looking for next level jank,you're looking for straight forward violence and that is what vGutter delivers. She's a perfect pick for Ox, making the M1 >  M2 almost guaranteed on every hit. Mob Favourite is actually a big deal with the initaitive cards and first turns not being so safe anymore. 

Resolute isn't amazing on a model with a counter attack but it is more damage, or it's a grappling hook onto a enemy model within 6" to disengage if the model attacking you doesn't have a reachable KD on the playbook.

Overall she's not awe inspiring but she is a SUPER reliable player who can take 4 influence, threatens far and has some built in threat extension. In a team that has such potential to delete players and is a fine line to balance between super strong and a little weak yet again SFG have a struck a excellent balance in the middle of that. 

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I'm not sure I see a place for her, I feel SFG have just gone in a little too average(safe) for her.

Grapple Hook sounds fun but being a jog it's just so situational and as a few people have mentioned would most likely be better used in counter attack.

To me she seems a bit like a weaker version of shank,

if you look at the math his more likely to out damage her with his 3 inf as he has a much stronger playbook, his tackle is on the second column and although his max threat isn't as good it's way more reliable.

It's not all bad though, that model is amazing and I might play her just for that (casually)

 

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23 hours ago, Tiberius said:

Lets all just step back, take a breath, and look at how damn THICC the model is.

DSCN9674.jpg

Is that bladed piece the same thing she used to "kill" Harry, and cut up Rage?

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22 hours ago, Frankanelli said:

I mean vetOx has some enemy movement so she wasn't go to have that, and they weren't going to have her exactly the same as her old model so swapping life drinker for resolute seems fine. 

I don't really get the insistence on comparing her to her first version. Being friendly guild is super helpful and the original gutter is on the way out. Plus in the meantime, it seems like the overlap of vGutter and Minx will be fun.

I think my larger point though is that people seem to be laying all their scorn for sfg at Gutter's feet. There was no way she was saving the guild. It seems to me that she's a perfectly effective model who's above average at basically everything. 

Decimate is going to be a solid model with 2", the chance to have 4 inf, average defense stats (read best defensive stats in guild) and some sort of tac buff. Very on message. Very usable. Nothing new. 

The Butcher's forum is a real rough mood right now and I get it. The guild has probably never been in a nicely balanced place. As tough as they have it now, they ran the meta in an unpleasant way for a while too.  The main causes of their rise and fall over the years though has been season changes. I'm not sure it's reasonable to expect that anything will change until the season does. Not saying it's fair. Just that it seems most likely. The SFG MO has been mid season nerfs and full season revamps. And Butcher's coaches I think are asking for some sort of rework. 

 

I don't want to start a whole thing with you here, man, especially since I've reconsidered my low(ish) rating of her, and I agree with you in large part. Just a few final thoughts, though.

Re: Vet Ox re-positioning - I mean, I guess? It's rather haphazard and risky. Chain Grab is precision baby! I guess giving Butchers much precision re-positioning isn't a thing SFG really wants.

Re: Life Drinker vs. Resolute - agree. I thought about it a bit, and I think Life Drinker would've been too strong. They replaced it not only w/ Resolute, but that bonus momentum thing. Upgrade.

Re: oGutter vs. vGutter - you don't get the insistence on comparing two models that literally have the same name and the same purpose on the team? They both have the exact same basic stats, including melee range, health, and base size. They have the same playbook structure, and, in a vacuum, the same damage output vs. a single target. One thing I've decided I really like about vGutter is - you can have your Gutter and your Harry, or A&G, or Minx, or Decimate, or Rage too.

Re: Decimate - where did you see the new model has a 2" reach?

Re: Butcher's forum - I do not visit the forums much anymore, and I can't speak to this. I do think, in general, the guild forums are not supportive enough. We, as social humans, have opinions, and when we have ways to voice those opinions, they can take on a life of their own. I don't mean to add to the Rage and Misery (that's the new Solthecian model). I truly did not understand the model (vGutter). It's becoming clearer now.

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13 hours ago, ForestRambo said:

Overall she's not awe inspiring but she is a SUPER reliable player who can take 4 influence, threatens far and has some built in threat extension.

Can you please go into details on this? I really want to like this model, and now I think there's something I fail to understand about her.

She is definitely playable with Ox, but I don't undestand how is she super reliable (because her 2M result is not). And her threat extension cripples her ability to do reasonable damage, even her T result is little more than a coin flip vs strikers.

I think she can be a good substitute either for Boar or Brisket vs certain teams, and she is of course a good friend of Meathook. So she has a place if I really want her to have a place. Now, how would you play her?

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4 hours ago, landstander said:

Re: oGutter vs. vGutter - you don't get the insistence on comparing two models that literally have the same name and the same purpose on the team? 

Haha very true. I worded this poorly. I was trying to say I don't understand why people want the exact same model they already have by lamenting the loss of things like chain grab and life drinker. Even still, now that I think about it, I guess since oGutter will rotate out it's almost a sort of rework rather than a full veteran. So it makes sense that people would look at the differences like they were changes to her old self and not a new model.  

 

4 hours ago, landstander said:

Re: Decimate - where did you see the new model has a 2" reach?

I was making an educated guess based on the size of that claymore she's wagging around. But I think I'm remembering an older sculpt, because I just took a zoomed in look at the exiles box and that doesn't seem to be case... That's a bummer. 

 

4 hours ago, landstander said:

Re: Butcher's forum - I do not visit the forums much anymore, and I can't speak to this. I do think, in general, the guild forums are not supportive enough. We, as social humans, have opinions, and when we have ways to voice those opinions, they can take on a life of their own. I don't mean to add to the Rage and Misery (that's the new Solthecian model). I truly did not understand the model (vGutter). It's becoming clearer now.

The forums always vary. And tone is tough. I feel like now I was maybe a bummer when I was more hoping to show that Gutter is worth being excited about. It does get grumpy sounding when I start in on "managing expectations." I don't mean for it to sound like "Dont get your hopes up." I do think that Butchers will see their time in the sun again someday, just not from a promotional box. 

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18 hours ago, malladin.ben said:

I suspect that's because the studio painted what was supposed to be trousers as flesh.

Well I'm glad they did =3

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I'm not a diehard butcher player, indeed I haven't laid hands on my friend's butchers in months, but she seems fun.

I always wanted to like Shank more than I did but I couldn't get over only having 3 influence. vGutter can carry Tooled up and Quick Foot just like Fillet, a 2" Melee keeps her safe from a hell of a lot, Anatomical Precision makes Tac 5 a little better than it is. The Butchers have a lot of influence efficiency and I can see plenty of scenarios where you'd be using Grapple to close the distance on an already wounded target who doesn't need a full stack of 4INF to finish off.

But on a list of things I'm not is  1. Good at this game.

I can see why she's disappointing, I feel like she's only just different enough from Shank to justify her own existence.

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On 3/23/2018 at 8:12 PM, angyi said:

Can you please go into details on this? I really want to like this model, and now I think there's something I fail to understand about her.

She is definitely playable with Ox, but I don't undestand how is she super reliable (because her 2M result is not). And her threat extension cripples her ability to do reasonable damage, even her T result is little more than a coin flip vs strikers.

I think she can be a good substitute either for Boar or Brisket vs certain teams, and she is of course a good friend of Meathook. So she has a place if I really want her to have a place. Now, how would you play her?

I am no top 100 player, but I am decently ranked in the community.  That said, I've played 8 games with her so far and have the following observations:

She seems to have a place in both Ox and Fillet lists, and 1) her damage output is pretty reliable, but you have to think about her activation as an investment into the long game, especially if you are planning to use grappling hook, 2) that over extension is very possible with her, especially against opponent lists where they have some beaters on the team, and 3) the extra MP on a kill is really relevant on a well set up turn.

1) Investment:  Depending on the team I was playing against, I would chose to actively load her on turn 1 with the intention to Jog/Sprint and Grapple, then get one attack in for most likely 1-2 damage.  Generally, I would do this to a team that I know couldn't hit back hard (Shark Fish, Engineers-ish, etc).  Yes, I would only get 1 momentum out of 4 influence, but my Butchers are engaged turn 1.  I would then use the rest of my team, and especially Ox to position for her to be within the aura on the top of turn 2.  If I had Shank and Brisket on my team, I could easily get a crowd up set up on that one player at +1-2. As such, the one thing I wanted to do in my game plan, which is closing the gap and killing, is perfectly set up at the top of 2.  She would then be attacking at Tact5+1 or 2, and hitting 2-3+1 damage under Ox's Aura, which can total to 12-16 damage, plus 1-2 from the last turn, or 4 momentum and 2 for the kill (6 momentum).  To me, the heavy cost of turn 1 sets up for turn 2 return. Just saying as well, the anatomical, buffs from the team, and crowd outs with 2" melees made wrapping (and tons of momentum) easy in most cases.

2) Over-extension: Keep in mind though that if the opponent can punish you for overextending, then don't (if you are playing against a beaty team or the opponent is playing cage-y).  As well, I usually kept this activation as a late activation with the hopes that I could get away with just a jog and chain grab and 2 attacks (2 momentum).

3) 2 MP on a Kill: If a stacked Gutter can kill a player, that is 6 momentum.  I usually pretended that this momentum was immediately lost and spent it fast on crucial healing, counters, and defensive stances, especially given that if the Butcher's momentum train starts, the rest of my team could easily generate 4-6 more momentum

Some lists I've play tested are:

Ox, Princess, Boiler, Shank, Vet Gutter, Vet Brisket, Flex

Ox, Truffles, Boar, Shank, Vet Gutter, Flex

Fillet, Princess, Boiler, Shank, Vet Gutter, Vet Ox, Flex

Fillet, Truffles, Boar, Shank, Vet Gutter, Vet Ox (4x 2" melee!)

 

Conclusion: Thus, after playing a few games, she almost always makes my list just based on her utility and reliability.  Interestingly, she has allowed me to also feel more comfortable taking Truffles and Boar in lieu of Boiler and Princess in my 10, thereby less competition for resources and highly efficient lists.  For example, below are the average allocations I have done with decent success:

Tournament 10: Ox, Fillet, Truffles, Boar, Shank, Vet Gutter, Vet Ox, Vet Brisket, Meathook, Tenderizer

0-1 Ox, 0-1 Truffles, 1 Boar, 3 Shank, 4 Gutter, 2-3 Meathook/Brisket

6 Fillet, 0-1 Truffles, 1 Boar, 0-4 Brisket, 0-4 Gutter, 1 Vet Ox

 

So, does Vet Gutter alone fix the guild? IMO, no.  The guild still seems to struggle in general.  However, she does change how I use the guild.  Thus, I am happy for the new character.  I think that it was a unfair expectation that Gutter would be the key to elevating Butchers to higher levels of play.

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Out of interest, how do you feel about vGutter after the vDecimate card? Seems like a really really short straw the Butchers pulled.. :D 

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I really like vGutter. 

vDecimate looks super good.

The two are not mutually exclusive for me ^_^

It is okay with me if Brewers get a good new toy as well. 

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I don't want to be negative. I will say Decimate looks amazing and will probably make me put my Brewers on the table regularly. Without calling Gutter weak, I wish her design was this exciting. I think them saying Gutter is a 'reference board' (for lack of a better term) Butcher highlights why I've been playing my other teams more recently. 

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vGutter has been designed as a Player for the Butchers and vDecimate has been designed for the Brewers.

I don't see value In comparing Players In different Guilds In a Vacuum.

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4 minutes ago, Kueller said:

I don't see value In comparing Players In different Guilds In a Vacuum.

I guess that comparing them literally, so looking at playbooks, traits, etc does not make sense - as this needs to be looked at in context of whole Guild.

But I think, what Furnace meant, by asking how do you feel after vDecimate card revealed is not comparing their cards, but general "feeling" that people have. Here it's usually "meh", "can have it's uses", "good but situational", with some more positive impression from NoSorumbo. On the other hand, everyone is super excited about vDecimate, and many people already see her as auto-include. And you actually can compare that. 

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The thing to take into account here is that whilst most butchers players are satisfied, even happy, with gutter, there's the thought that shes a bit bland or uninteresting. I think this stems from the fact that she is very little different to her original version. The only really new thing she does is the extra jog forward and even that isn't much different to other things we have in guild. For some there may also be a bit of disappointment that she lost scything blow and didn't get anything back equivalent in return.

Decimate, on the other hand does something that feels very brewer's yet adds something completely new to the guild, something we've only really seen previously with Hammer - the ability to sgive people around and chase after them with a dodge - it's a really interesting mechanic that fits nicely within the brewer's colour pie yet adds something new to their play. That and changing the 4/1 mobile model to a 3/1 tough hide just feels right for her.

It's not so much that decimate is much better than gutter (although she is at least a bit), it's that she is something different, new and both a brewer and decimate at the same time. Gutter just feels like a colour swap from purple to red in comparison.

It's not the "better" it's the "interesting".

 

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So Finally got 2 games in with her so far so good just a reliable beater that can generate a ton of momentum she struggles against tough hide models but butchers can somewhat get past that. Tried her with Fillet worked out decently but with no aura from ox its a fight for who needs Tooled up more, I would have really liked if she had some kind of bleed play but oh well. Captain Ox just loves her, shes a serious threat while in the ox aura . I think what really got my opponents was resolute her becoming a tac 7 really helps to land that GB and get her out of a bad situation.

So far shes a reliable beater ( though 2 damage on 3 is kinda rough) and she can be somewhat slippery with grappling hook and resolute.

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Tried vGutter on Saturday. Solid. Not ball bashingly amazing (although I was playing into Shark fish so had to go chasing players outside the owner). Took out Sakana and then pushed him off the pitch next turn. She was almost a little too quick for Ox though...

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My feelings on vGutter have been a bit of a roller coaster. At first I was utterly and impressively "meh" over her. She did not have anything that leapt out as cool or interesting to me, especially after seeing so many toys show up for Farmers, Blacksmiths and Ratcatchers. Then I sat down and digested her card. She is our only 2" melee with 2/4 Influence, excluding Union contracts. That is significant. So I sat down and played with her and am at about 5 games with her at this point. 2 with Ox, 2 with Fillet and 1 that doesn't really matter because she was effectively handled by my opponent. After playing I felt better about her; she's a workhorse. Then veCimate's card (as our group has taken to calling vetDecimate) was released and I was frankly pissed. Comparatively she is so VERY much better than vGutter. Higher TAC, increased to 2" melee and easier access to 3 damage and KD, better character plays... Funny, when they discussed Gutter they were all about "What is a Butcher?" Yet when they showed vDecimate it was all "She's really a veteran now and has so much more to offer than before." Whatever. In comparison I don't think anyone can honestly argue that "vG>vD". We have different guilds and something good for the Brewers does not mean something bad for the Butchers directly. So: Yay for the Brewers, I'm glad they got someone useful.

Her stats and playbook are EXTREMELY similar to Boiler's, and both have Anatomical Precision. What Boiler has that Gutter does not is synergy. He gets a lot from puppy power. That Princess-Boiler combo feels like that is why he has a low TAC, for a Butcher. And he also is a great way to get someone bleeding for Fillet. Any bonuses that Gutter can get could go to him as well. As a side not, the only other Butchers with 5 TAC all have other obvious perks. vBrisket / oBrisket (TAC 4) is a scorer and is dodgy. Tenderizer is about efficiency supposedly, though I personally don't really care for him. That's it other than Mascots.

Her Character Play is EXTREMELY iffy and situational. It feels like there are only ever two times to use it. Someone is almost dead and you need to get one or two damage on someone far away (Sprint, Grapple and 1 Influence left to attack) or to try to flee someone with a full stack from laying into her using a counter attack, assuming there is another enemy model within 6 of her. And pray for enough hits to trigger it.

For all my complaints about her, she still will most likely always make my 10. 2" melee, 2/4 Influence and AP. I also want to really like Resolute, but for whatever reason I often roll out two net hits or can't grapple to anyone. Even though she is solid in Ox lists, I may actually prefer her for Fillet. (Honestly, my favorite lineup for her so far is Girl Power: Fillet, Princess, vGutter, Brisket, Meathook and Minx. Not great but it's fun.) Fillet hurts, maims and kills just fine without Tooled Up. vGutter can take it instead and spend four actions gouging holes from 2" away without the counter attacks. And while Fillet is off doing her own thing, Gutter can hang back with the rest and play beater. The extra momentum generation from takeouts is actually strong if you're using the Game Plan cards for initiative. Is she better than Boiler at damage without Princess? No. His playbook is better for a TAC of 5 than hers for damage and he has Bleed and Marked Target.

I cannot help but feel that she should have been balanced a bit better. If she were TAC 6 I think I would feel a LOT better about her seeming as how she is almost pure DPS, if you will. Grappling Hook being a dodge might be too powerful. I think it should negate the +2 TAC on a parting blow instead. Either of those would be good. Both of those would make her competitive.

Just my .02, thanks for "listening" to my ramble.

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