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I think Grapple has its place. She is a 2" melee (and Butchers struggle for that) and she is reliable. She isn't revolutionary - she's got some utility, lost some DMG setup in Scything blow, is still a cow. I think I would have liked her to have Crucial Artery...but alas. Ox can take her and get good things from her. 

Good enough. Not great.

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1 minute ago, EpicChris said:

I think Grapple has its place. She is a 2" melee (and Butchers struggle for that) and she is reliable. She isn't revolutionary - she's got some utility, lost some DMG setup in Scything blow, is still a cow. I think I would have liked her to have Crucial Artery...but alas. Ox can take her and get good things from her. 

Good enough. Not great.

Who would you take her instead of? 

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I would take her in an Ox list for sure. Who would I kick out - depends on the list. Maybe a Brisket, maybe a Shank. I can see something like Ox, Princess, Boiler, Meathook, Gutter2, Boar. Sure it's all DMG all the time. But Gutter2 lets you get someone to the enemy to start the momentum chain. Once Ox buffs her, she is killing people, no doubt. Would I always take her. No. But I would taker her sometimes I think. I can feel a use for her once all the Union are gone.

 

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I am for one excited for using her. 

I mean 20' goals range AND some serious  Dmg abilities to go with it? 

I must test things but i feel she will push Brisket out of my Ox lineup. 

Depending on what i need i wił go either

Ox/Gutter/Boar/Shank/Meathook/Truffles

or

Ox/Boiler/Gutter/Boar/Meathook/Princess

although maybe Shank in for Meathook in the second one. 

2'' reach is always welcome and damn she is fast. 

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Not excited at all. Another 2" melee model with corner case abilities, w/o any means to capitalize on its melee range, and not a single reliable mechanic that could be compared to the competition. I don't buy the "can be good with Ox" argument because everything gets better with +1dmg. (I'd say he himself does cripple butchers' model design, everything goes restrained because of the OMG owner + get'em lads turn.) Also we are told things like "Grapple Hook gives Gutter a potentially enormous threat range". ?? "Grapple Hook should be used to close the distance when an opposing team is playing cautiously, or to catch up with a wounded enemy trying to escape being taken out." ???? "Alternatively, Gutter could trigger Grapple Hook from her playbook to escape a melee (be careful of parting blows!)." ???????? By the way, we are talking about a model with TAC5, character play on 3, tackle on 4. Now this is getting almost comical.

I will probably buy her for the sake of a nice model to have, but it seems like  the UiC/Exiles project is not supposed to change the actual status quo in any way.

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4 minutes ago, angyi said:

Not excited at all. Another 2" melee model with corner case abilities, w/o any means to capitalize on its melee range, and not a single reliable mechanic that could be compared to the competition. I don't buy the "can be good with Ox" argument because everything gets better with +1dmg. (I'd say he himself does cripple butchers' model design, everything goes restrained because of the OMG owner + get'em lads turn.) Also we are told things like "Grapple Hook gives Gutter a potentially enormous threat range". ?? "Grapple Hook should be used to close the distance when an opposing team is playing cautiously, or to catch up with a wounded enemy trying to escape being taken out." ???? "Alternatively, Gutter could trigger Grapple Hook from her playbook to escape a melee (be careful of parting blows!)." ???????? By the way, we are talking about a model with TAC5, character play on 3, tackle on 4. Now this is getting almost comical.

I will probably buy her for the sake of a nice model to have, but it seems like  the UiC/Exiles project is not supposed to change the actual status quo in any way.

2" melee, a reasonable playbook (with anatomical) and 2/4 influence is exactly what Ox needed ever since Shank went to 2/3. Nobody else in the faction does all of that.

What makes you think using Grapple to engage or escape isn't going to happen?

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1 hour ago, Gauntlet said:

2" melee, a reasonable playbook (with anatomical) and 2/4 influence is exactly what Ox needed ever since Shank went to 2/3. Nobody else in the faction does all of that.

What makes you think using Grapple to engage or escape isn't going to happen?

2" melee: we already had 4 models with 2" melee. The problem was not the utter lack of 2" melee, the problem was the unreliability of those models. Tenderiser is a goalkeeper, Shank lacks the 4th INF, Boar is as much a liability as a killer, and vOx, in my opinion, is a subpar model without old Harry, although I know some people like to experiment with him.

Playbook: AP sure makes up for her wonky playbook and TAC5 to some extent, but now vGutter is stuck in the no man's land of odds. In many cases you have exactly 50% to achieve the desired results. It's the same thing that makes oBrisket (TAC4, tackle on 1) a better tackler than vBrisket (TAC5, tackle on 2). Of course you are right that once she gets in melee, her 4 INF is exactly what Ox needs. But once the enemy gets engaged and the auras of Ox are up, it never was a problem to maim the opposition, no matter which models you got. The problem was to engage on your own terms, at least in my experience.

Using Grapple to engage: given that you are not already in melee (otherwise go to "Using Grapple to escape"), you pay 2 INF to gain a really enormous threat range. Only you'll have 2 more INF left to do something with said threat range, which, in my book, pushes this in the corner case category.

Using Grapple to escape: you hit your opponent, playing for the combined odds to hit and to get away with the free strike KO. Grapple is not momentous, so you hopefully have MOM to stand up outside his melee and continue your journey. Can all this be useful? Sure. Corner case usability? Sure.

-----

Don't get me wrong, I think I can see the situations when vGutter can be good enough. Only I think that she doesn't address any problems that my actual butcher lists struggle with, and (personal preference) I don't like models that _can be_ good in the given circumstances, especially if you are not likely in control to trigger those circumstances.

All in all, I don't want to be a die-hard naysayer, I only submitted my gut feelings because the OP asked for "Thoughts?" These are my thoughts ATM. The model itself is gorgeous, and while I don't feel her necessary for my teams, she is not vOx level bad, so I surely will try her. Possibly my opinion will then change dramatically.

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What does the ideal turn with VGutter look like.  She runs in deals 4-8 damage and done?  I am having a hard time visualizing her usages.  If this is what she does it's kind of underwhelming swing as we have many other models that do the same thing but with other tricks added into it.

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I will say that she is a quintessential Butcher, which is cool.  I would have just liked to see a small tweak or two to make here more then just a beat stick.  Grapple Hook being towards instead of directly towards, or putting her tackle low on her play book would have gone a long way to make her a little bit more of a striking threat but in a butchery way.  Tac six would also feel more like a butcher.  I am deffinetly reserving judgement untill I can play her though.

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I’m quite disappointed by the rules and the 5 TAC.

if we look at the stats, she is Boiler with a 2’’ melee which is nice and a better kick. But Boiler does have access to the princess gang bang that makes him a fantastic beater.

Same playbook length but with a 2 damage momentus on 3... you have to pick your target to deal damages efficiently.

like everyone said Grapple Hook is niche and will be useful but it is not a real player defining play so I am a bit sad.

we will see in the future if we are wrong about her maybe.

 

 

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In an effort to be positive, the momentous one on the first column combined with anatomical precision make her good at hunting low Def high armor models. I like her chances against someone like Iron.

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The fact that she can get 4 INF and has a decent range allows Ox to further project his "threat aura" via Butchery. 

Not sure how my Butchers 10 will look but pretty sure Vet Gutter makes the cut.

My only big disappointment his her playbook isn't designed to make great use of Resolute.

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I must not understand the purpose of the Exiles (UiC) models. I was under the impression that SFG would take this opportunity to make some slight tweaks to guild capability, as well as smooth some gaps that will be created when the Union models are removed (please note that I don't think SFG ever specifically said this, or even heavily implied it). This model just doesn't accomplish this well, in my opinion. Right now (that is, prior to the Butchers minor guild release), why would one take vGutter over oGutter? She has literally lower damage output potential (because the mom 3 on 5 is clearly less than the mom GB on 5), her re-positioning tricks are less "safe," and she dies easier (losing Life Drinker). vGutter obviously has a place against high ARM teams - but so does oGutter. I love the model, but unless the minor guild players are unexpectedly odd, I don't see her having much impact... I hope I'm proven wrong.

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1 hour ago, landstander said:

I must not understand the purpose of the Exiles (UiC) models. I was under the impression that SFG would take this opportunity to make some slight tweaks to guild capability, as well as smooth some gaps that will be created when the Union models are removed (please note that I don't think SFG ever specifically said this, or even heavily implied it). This model just doesn't accomplish this well, in my opinion. Right now (that is, prior to the Butchers minor guild release), why would one take vGutter over oGutter? She has literally lower damage output potential (because the mom 3 on 5 is clearly less than the mom GB on 5), her re-positioning tricks are less "safe," and she dies easier (losing Life Drinker). vGutter obviously has a place against high ARM teams - but so does oGutter. I love the model, but unless the minor guild players are unexpectedly odd, I don't see her having much impact... I hope I'm proven wrong.

Yeah this expectation is going to be a huge problem I think with everyone's exile...

I definitely don't think this was the point of the exiles. The time from voting to release for these models seems particularly tight, and the fact that they are all packaged together makes me feel like they are more about releasing some cool models, and less about rules fixing. 

I don't expect many of these models to be "exciting." Minx and Hemlock may be an exception because SFG tipped the scales on that one, but even still I doubt they will be game breaking. I think alot of them will fall into the Lucky category. Solid rules, mostly straightforward, sticks to the guild archtype.  

That being said, I think butchers lists are perfectly happy to have an offensively and defensively competent 2" melee model. It definitely fills a gap. It just doesn't break the skew. 

And I think Brewers players should gear up for a very similar feeling next week if they are expecting their guild to be fixed from one model.  

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I've been thinking more about Vet Gutter counter attack potential and have slightly revised my opinion. 

Hitting 3 succeses with a TAC 7 and Anatomical Precision isn't quite magic Christmas dice and could kill a stack of your opponents INF. If she stays with 6" of an opposing player and the attacking model had to move she would not suffer parting until exiting melee.

If the attacker can't generate extra movement . . . 

And unlike a >> result it works if a 2" player bases her. 

Not great but not useless either. 

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45 minutes ago, Alphadork said:

I've been thinking more about Vet Gutter counter attack potential and have slightly revised my opinion. 

Hitting 3 succeses with a TAC 7 and Anatomical Precision isn't quite magic Christmas dice and could kill a stack of your opponents INF. If she stays with 6" of an opposing player and the attacking model had to move she would not suffer parting until exiting melee.

If the attacker can't generate extra movement . . . 

And unlike a >> result it works if a 2" player bases her. 

Not great but not useless either. 

Wait, I don't quite understand your scenario. If she Counter Attacks, and hits the 3rd column (and is within 6" of an enemy model), she gets her job without procing a Parting Blow?

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1 hour ago, Frankanelli said:

Yeah this expectation is going to be a huge problem I think with everyone's exile...

I definitely don't think this was the point of the exiles. The time from voting to release for these models seems particularly tight, and the fact that they are all packaged together makes me feel like they are more about releasing some cool models, and less about rules fixing. 

I don't expect many of these models to be "exciting." Minx and Hemlock may be an exception because SFG tipped the scales on that one, but even still I doubt they will be game breaking. I think alot of them will fall into the Lucky category. Solid rules, mostly straightforward, sticks to the guild archtype.  

That being said, I think butchers lists are perfectly happy to have an offensively and defensively competent 2" melee model. It definitely fills a gap. It just doesn't break the skew. 

And I think Brewers players should gear up for a very similar feeling next week if they are expecting their guild to be fixed from one model.  

I guess I get what you're saying... but they have that now in oGutter. Basically, it seems that people have already written off oGutter in Butchers and assumed they will be using vGutter instead, even though her new incarnation is worse in many ways than her old, and Butchers teams can still take the original version. Or they really want to take both Gutter AND another Union option; clearly vGutter enables that. The snarky, jaded side of me (vocal far too often for me these days) wonders if Butchers players have been ignored for so long that anything that isn't outright laughable is seen as great. I don't know - I don't play Butchers yet (they're on the list, for sure), so maybe I don't have the right feel for them to recognize utility. But my read is that a piece that had better enemy re-positioning capability, like pushes or the original Chain Grab or whatever, would serve a more expansive purpose. Or, barring that, make the jog a jog sized dodge. Or, barring that, let her keep Life Drinker ffs.

And I fear you are right about Decimate...

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16 minutes ago, landstander said:

Wait, I don't quite understand your scenario. If she Counter Attacks, and hits the 3rd column (and is within 6" of an enemy model), she gets her job without procing a Parting Blow?

She'll take the Parting Blow, but the PB happens when she leaves the model's melee zone, so they'll only get one swing (after the PB, she'll be out of their melee range).  If they don't have another way to move, that means they'll only ever get to hit her twice (once on the initial attack that provoked the counter, once on the PB).  Corner case, but it could save a takeout in the right circumstances.  Of course, if she's already hurt, or when some really big hitters are swinging under buffs, two hits might be all it takes...

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1 hour ago, landstander said:

I guess I get what you're saying... but they have that now in oGutter. Basically, it seems that people have already written off oGutter in Butchers and assumed they will be using vGutter instead, even though her new incarnation is worse in many ways than her old, and Butchers teams can still take the original version. Or they really want to take both Gutter AND another Union option; clearly vGutter enables that. The snarky, jaded side of me (vocal far too often for me these days) wonders if Butchers players have been ignored for so long that anything that isn't outright laughable is seen as great. I don't know - I don't play Butchers yet (they're on the list, for sure), so maybe I don't have the right feel for them to recognize utility. But my read is that a piece that had better enemy re-positioning capability, like pushes or the original Chain Grab or whatever, would serve a more expansive purpose. Or, barring that, make the jog a jog sized dodge. Or, barring that, let her keep Life Drinker ffs.

And I fear you are right about Decimate...

Somebody on GuBS "reminded" me (that is - pointed out) that The Owner is guild only. That changes things quite a bit. So, yeah, this definitely improves my opinion quite a bit. I still wish that free jog was a bit safer (that is, didn't necessarily proc a parting blow).

1 minute ago, Tiberius said:

Lets all just step back, take a breath, and look at how damn THICC the model is.

DSCN9674.jpg

Oh, definitely. Love the model. I would love to use this as my Union Gutter.

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3 hours ago, landstander said:

But my read is that a piece that had better enemy re-positioning capability, like pushes or the original Chain Grab or whatever, would serve a more expansive purpose. Or, barring that, make the jog a jog sized dodge. Or, barring that, let her keep Life Drinker ffs.

And I fear you are right about Decimate...

I mean vetOx has some enemy movement so she wasn't go to have that, and they weren't going to have her exactly the same as her old model so swapping life drinker for resolute seems fine. 

I don't really get the insistence on comparing her to her first version. Being friendly guild is super helpful and the original gutter is on the way out. Plus in the meantime, it seems like the overlap of vGutter and Minx will be fun.

I think my larger point though is that people seem to be laying all their scorn for sfg at Gutter's feet. There was no way she was saving the guild. It seems to me that she's a perfectly effective model who's above average at basically everything. 

Decimate is going to be a solid model with 2", the chance to have 4 inf, average defense stats (read best defensive stats in guild) and some sort of tac buff. Very on message. Very usable. Nothing new. 

The Butcher's forum is a real rough mood right now and I get it. The guild has probably never been in a nicely balanced place. As tough as they have it now, they ran the meta in an unpleasant way for a while too.  The main causes of their rise and fall over the years though has been season changes. I'm not sure it's reasonable to expect that anything will change until the season does. Not saying it's fair. Just that it seems most likely. The SFG MO has been mid season nerfs and full season revamps. And Butcher's coaches I think are asking for some sort of rework. 

 

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