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Desertspiral

Tapper - why ever bring him???

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On 3/22/2018 at 6:37 AM, Desertspiral said:

I don't understand how Brewers are supposed to outscrum a team that has a good portion of reach, and mostly all have two armour as well (whether natively or through proximity).  

Lets (for arguments sake) say the team is: Ferrite (C), Hearth, Furnace, Iron, Cinder, and Alloy.

It's faster than Brewers, handles better, and hits harder as well as being way tougher. 

Also every scrum is instantly lost the moment Ferrite activates and disarms 2-3 people, not to mention furnace dropping CoaaT for free and eliminating any potential strength in numbers.  At that point brewers have nothing.  

 

For reference I was using Tapper, Scum, Friday, Spigot, Hooper and Lucky.  

 

I feel like saying just take out the apprentices, may as well be saying get gud and just win.  It doesn't really appreciate the holistic board state and the fact that smiths synergise way better than brewers do, and a lot more of it is passive.  Brewers have to work really hard to make progress on take outs vs Smiths and since smiths have a lot of effective low momentous results its easier for them to undo the headway and make stymie any further progress.  

Again though - I'm open to any input that explains in a logical way how Brewers out perform in this scenario.  

 

Cheers

Blacksmiths feels a bit of receiving versus kicking. I tend to try to play a condition game against blacksmiths with. Esters, scum, spigot1, hemlocke, stoker, Friday receiving, pintpot kicking. Try to soften up with conditions hemlocke has favorable blinds, and just try to avoid a 4 influence iron smashing your guys. As 3 momentous 7s kill tapper.

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I've been doing some more thinking about this problem; and have been toying around with the following idea.

Why not just take Quaff with Tapper?

Logically from what this thread has generate Tapper is there as a support and set up piece to generate CA, and knock downs rather than take outs and to do that he only really needs four influence so the (+0/+1) is a nice to have rather than a necessity.  

Secondly since Brewers typically have short play books yes, and also trend to suffer from low Tac something that is helped by CA, and also crowds - however, Bag of quaffers also helps this by increasing the wrap potential.  As Brewers don't tend to do momentous damage until the last two columns it also helps to ensure that you reach those momentous results - particularly against the tougher teams.  

On top of Quaffers players are basically conditioned to never trigger Loved creature so you can keep Quaff in the scrum and use him as a crowd or for the m>> results to help you get a favourable scrum.  If they do trigger it though you have a board wide boost to your team so it's win/win.  

Lastly and perhaps most importantly second wind is an amazing play and given that it lets your primary damage dealer go in and then retreat unscathed you are able to set up a very strong yoyo that can just delete a player and then back out to safety or go deeper if its late in the turn to reach for the next line.  

All the logic behind Old jakes giving you a flexible game plan support this as well wince Quaff can then become a dynamic piece who allows other members of the team to reach further and/or just perform better.

 

I appreciate that there is a lot of love for scum and the fact that he's basically the only brewer with M.Damage on 2 columns (outside of Lucky), however, does Quaff provide a valid and useful alternative that outshines the simplicity of pure damage?

 

Thanks

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I've tried Quaff a lot and the problem is you really miss Scum when kicking. That 1 MOM you gain from Scum on the first turn makes all the difference and allows Brewers to put a lot of pressure on turn 1 with Tapper. 

7 hours ago, doublecheese said:

As 3 momentous 7s kill tapper.

It's way more difficult to deal 3x 7 on Tapper than you might think. I would even say you've misplayed if you've allowed that to happen.

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1 hour ago, Edek said:

That 1 MOM you gain from Scum on the first turn makes all the difference

Noob question: How do you get 1 MOM from scum kicking? 

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What he said! BTW Mike White finished TOP3 at Adepticon and looking at the other guilds present, it wasn't an easy task

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On 3/24/2018 at 6:45 AM, Edek said:

I've tried Quaff a lot and the problem is you really miss Scum when kicking. That 1 MOM you gain from Scum on the first turn makes all the difference and allows Brewers to put a lot of pressure on turn 1 with Tapper. 

It's way more difficult to deal 3x 7 on Tapper than you might think. I would even say you've misplayed if you've allowed that to happen.

I think the 20/20 hindsight "misplay" is a broad term. I think we can agree that there are general things that you can label "misplays", but certain actions can be more a risk/reward and how well your opponent can capitalize on things. I generally play Tapper hyper aggressive and am ok trading him after he has generated 4 points. 

 

On 3/24/2018 at 9:37 AM, Edek said:

What he said! BTW Mike White finished TOP3 at Adepticon and looking at the other guilds present, it wasn't an easy task

Thanks, it was a fun day that had a bit of luck, great opponents and crazy games.

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12 hours ago, doublecheese said:

I generally play Tapper hyper aggressive and am ok trading him after he has generated 4 points. 

Ok that's fair enough :) 

BTW I've looked into your pairings at Adepticon (I understand that you're Mike White :P ) and all of the captain choices seem to same that I would take but I was surprised you took Esters into Engineers. This is my most played match up and Tapper from my experience is the better option. What 6 did you take against Ballista? The Tapper into Masons is a tough call but for me it might be the worst match up for Brewers.

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6 hours ago, Edek said:

Ok that's fair enough :) 

BTW I've looked into your pairings at Adepticon (I understand that you're Mike White :P ) and all of the captain choices seem to same that I would take but I was surprised you took Esters into Engineers. This is my most played match up and Tapper from my experience is the better option. What 6 did you take against Ballista? The Tapper into Masons is a tough call but for me it might be the worst match up for Brewers.

I believe I received that game so I chose to go Esters for the first turn goal line score with Friday. Rest of the line up was hemlocke, spigot, scum, stoker. He played ballista, hoist, mother, ratchet, A+G, compound, But I hit ballista with blind, fire, and rough ground after he kicked off. So after Friday scored he had 2 momentum so he could clear and kick a goal with legendary but it would have been a 1 dice goal walking into engagement. Blind was a big part of this game as he loaded 5 on A+G and after blind he didn't have the speed to get anywhere relevant and esters one rounded ballista.

 

I played Zach on Thursday with Esters and was a grisly grindy game and he made excellent use of cover with his 2 armor models which made it hard for Esters to get much work done. So I played tapper on Friday also because I was kicking off. One highlight tho in hindsight was probably incorrect, was tapper one rounding Brick by himself on 5 attacks. Charged netting knockdown and aura, then bonus timed my next 4 attacks not rolling a single one in the next 36 dice rolled... I had the plus 7 so was gambling I could go even and inflict the most damage. He had the other and I lost the roll off. Zach is a tremendous player so I felt I needed to take some bigger risks to put myself ahead.

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