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Game Plan deck discussion

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52 minutes ago, EpicChris said:

Why is the scoring model the closest model to your goal?? I just think that's rarely going to happen - maybe Butcher might be case for it. But even then push-dodges are a thing! I think timing Offside Trap and getting anything from it will be very difficult.

If you're outside of 8" of the goal post this is always going to be the case, surely? Although you are correct about push dodges being a flaw in my cunning plan. I told you I was rubbish at this game, lol.

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More to your point @Gauntlet, your deck of 5 is very interesting because if you want to go first the first 3 turns and the momentum is close then you have burned all of your high initiative cards and now your opponent can plan for that in the later rounds. If I know I am going to lose a race early (because I am down 2-3 momentum, then I will play my lowest cards and get awesome benefits) 

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I do think you have some options later sure - hence I said the logical plan is to play low when losing and only play high when winning. If the game goes to Turn 4 you might be able to leverage that - but I've been finding games ending much quicker.

Regarding Offside Trap - I guess my meta might be longer scoring models such as Engineers and Fish that do punt it at max range rather than go for 3+s. I guess we'll see - I'm sure someone will do a poll in 3 months to see what cards people like/dont like.

I just don't like the random draw idea - I hated the plot card imbalance because it tilted the game, especially when they got Who Are You and Knee Slider together - and this seemed to happen way too often. I'm just not sure random draw leads to two decks of equal power. And I worry the new system can punish that much more than the old plot system.

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15 hours ago, EpicChris said:

I just don't like the random draw idea - I hated the plot card imbalance because it tilted the game, especially when they got Who Are You and Knee Slider together - and this seemed to happen way too often. I'm just not sure random draw leads to two decks of equal power. And I worry the new system can punish that much more than the old plot system.

To be fair this is a valid criticism. I payed a game with them last night and whilst the init score was only relevant going in to turn 2 (all the other turns I was just so up on mom it didnt matter) i drew both 7s and one of the 6s so felt like I was going to be in control if it was ever close.

That said I still much prefer this system to the old. Not because of the initiative number, which largely felt neither here nor there for most of the game, but because these cards are just plain better in so many ways than plot cards (which have exactly the same weakness).

Compared to plot cards, which in season 3 I have often found myself with 3 unused cards at the end of the game, I am always getting a benefit - however sitiational that benefit may be it always allows me the opportunity to play into setting it up and my opponent the opportunity to prevent me from setting up the situation. There are no massive gotchas during gameplay, theres much less of an issue about forgtting you have them and failing to playing them when you have the chance (or is it just messy old me who has this problem?), and there's none of the real npe cards like don't touch the hair, knee slider, and whatever personal hates each one of us has.

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On 3/15/2018 at 8:03 AM, EpicChris said:

Actually there are many examples. Another off my head is Shark. His legendary is well known and brutal to some teams. Before you could use the roll-off to mitigate it. Now he can auto-win and get your team and get a benefit.

I think you are applying arbitrary values to the cards but missing the point - the more momentum advantage a team has the better access to going first AND playing those better cards. So the new system does reward Win More. E.g. ad absurdium, if I have +7 Momentum I can play any card I like - any 6/10 card. 

It was just an example - I'm not getting into an argument about countering Ox, I'm saying people can start to play for board position knowing they will go first and I think that will change the game. This is DIFFERENT to the old system and I am saying I think it will lead to pre-determined outcomes. 

This deck tries to replace rolling off with pre-determinism but then includes luck in that pre-determined deck, which is bad. Compare for example the system of combat in Game of Thrones boardgame - players have identical card numbers and then add the army power. By having access to the same numbers, a player can make a real choice. Here you have a random selection to try to employ.

I guess we see things differently. All we can see is how the game grows over the next year. I wonder how we will view playing the GP cards after 3 months...

careful with your sound logic, the internet will burn you down for it. Tell you flat out you're wrong then 2 months later act like the conversation never happened while they are taking your advice. believe me....i know :)

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After playing some games, I really like gameplan cards for now. It does make the momentum race more important and a +1 over the opponent is usually more valuable.  The cards did get rid of the one thing I found too swingy in the games, being the initiative roll. I've won and lost games due to someon losing the initative with +4 momentum and this feels like garbage for both players. The cards still have luck in it due to the luck of the draw, but even with a very low initiative value draw you can at least plan for it.  I am ok withe random cards since you have to then adapt your play to your cards, but I  think a draft could have worked, too.

Also, always playing a high card when up on momentum and always playing a low one when down does make you exploitable, especially in longer games.

 

The only thing, but that is an OPD thing, everything being off the clock isn't good, in my opinion. The first player to put down a card should be allowed to start his opponent's clock.

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9 hours ago, Celeb said:

The only thing, but that is an OPD thing, everything being off the clock isn't good, in my opinion. The first player to put down a card should be allowed to start his opponent's clock.

I like this

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I am still quite unsure about the game plans. 

Having an advantage of a single point of momentum gives you everything you need (if you have a single 7 card) to go first on the turn you need to. This is something that was not an option before and was a risk one had to take and account for. I do not think that getting the first turn like that is penalized enough/at all with the current 7 cards.

The problem is effectively that the same model that went last and spent 6 influence this round, ensuring the higher MP count, can simply go again and take out another enemy model (looking at you Thresher, Hammer, Fillet,...), while on the other hand a model 1" in front of the goal cannot tap the goal in if going first and needs to smack another player first for some reason. I see that as quite unfair of an advantage towards fighty teams.

There has to be another kind of bonus or a system that gives the player going 2nd a bit more chance. Either:

- that the player going first cannot be allocated more influence than they generate or some kind of hard limit like 4 INF.

- Player going 2nd can replace up to 2 INF in the next turn and starts with that much more momentum. That could at least give you a chance to properly defend yourself against the opponents 1st activation (although severely hampering the player).

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4 hours ago, Rugi said:

while on the other hand a model 1" in front of the goal cannot tap the goal in if going first and needs to smack another player first for some reason. I see that as quite unfair of an advantage towards fighty teams.

 

This is a big issue with me. With a pure striker like Flint or Angel, TAC 4 and no suitable momentum until you get 2+ hits, getting that momentum is really hard. First time I used the game plan Flint  had the ball deep in enemy territory, and the  only card I had left to play was Lone stirker. +7 int meant I was definatly going first, but -1 TAC and the  only target having DEF 4 ARM 1 meant is was nearly immpossible for him to  get that momentum. Can't score and can't get away. It sure wasn't an advantage for me. 

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Lone Striker is mad compared with Seize the Initiative. Sure have variety but StI is so ridiculously good (in many cases you won't care that your opponent gets a 4" dodge because giving your own model a 4" dodge is amazing)  and Lone Striker is flipping awful (yes you can give initiative to your opponent but...niche). I think StI needs to go to -1 INF and LS needs to go to 0 INF. I have won games with StI - it is utterly ridiculous for some teams. Am I taking crazy pills? StI is crazy good right?

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1 hour ago, EpicChris said:

Lone Striker is mad compared with Seize the Initiative. Sure have variety but StI is so ridiculously good (in many cases you won't care that your opponent gets a 4" dodge because giving your own model a 4" dodge is amazing)  and Lone Striker is flipping awful (yes you can give initiative to your opponent but...niche). I think StI needs to go to -1 INF and LS needs to go to 0 INF. I have won games with StI - it is utterly ridiculous for some teams. Am I taking crazy pills? StI is crazy good right?

Seize is pretty good, but giving a 4" dodge to the opponent is a real cost. I feel like Lone Striker is about where a +7 card 'should' be, maybe a little on the weaker side.

I'd put the cards like this:

 

Very good:

Seize the Initiative

Grudge Match

Go For the Knees

Back In The Game

Kick 'Em While They're Down

 

Reasonable / usually good but can depend on opponent / okay but nothing amazing:

Dig Deep

Won't Touch The Hair

Get Back In There

Wing Backs

Keep Your Chin Up

Full Back

Stick to the Plan

 

Underwhelming / play only if you have to / not impressed:

Lone Striker

Midfield General

Hunker Down

Offside Trap

Keep the Ball Moving

Sell It to the Crowd

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I take LS for the 7+ but...I'd wish I had Seize. Yeah they can do some stuff with a 4" dodge, but I used it over the weekend to disengage Ferrite from 3 beatdowners and tackle/score the goal. It's insane to go first with this card and that it is not a -1. Absolutely insane. Maybe if it was a 2" dodge but 4" is so/too good.

Interesting list, mine would be:

Always take:

Seize the Initiative (this season's Knee Slider)

Sell it to the Crowd (rubbish card but +6 is +6)

Lone Striker (another rubbish card but +7)

Grudge Match (+6 and great ability. -1 is ouch but this can be game shifting if you go first)

Full Back (+5 and nice ability) - but I agree with Vincent Curkov, they should not have included a card called Wing BackS as well as this - bloody confusing.

Go for the Knees (+5 and EXCELLENT ability)

Stick to the Plan (+5 and good ability, -1 hurts)

Cards I'll take after the above:

Hunker Down (+1 INF and nice ability - great dump card when you know you're losing Init)

Back in the Game (Great ability - dump card)

Get Back in There (Great ability - dump card)

Midfield General (Great ability that affects all players - dump card)

Keep Ball Moving (Great ability that affects all players - dump card)

Keep Your Chin Up! (Great ability - dump card)

Won't Touch the Hair (Great ability and +1 INF)

Wing Backs (So-so ability and +4 INIT - it's ok)

Kick 'Em When They're Down (Amazing ability - for some Guilds)

Cards I would rather cut my own arm off than take

Dig Deep (Situational ability, most other cards are better in INF and INIT)

Offside Trap (trash - ability will fire very rarely unless they go for Tap In and they will just get another MP if they need to and you'll never time it right - everything above is better)

I think my current strategy in cards is take up to 3 highest INIT I can get, then fill up on 2 dump cards. Plan on winning game in 4 turns (or longer if I cant get +1 MOM advantage).

 

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"Seize the initiative" is a lot less impactful than Kneeslider plus can also backfire if used careless. You want to go first to take out that model in the scrum?  Now he dodges out off the scrum. You are going to grab the goal? Your opponent dodges closer to yours for the snap back goal. Plus whatever effect their card gives them. It is  a lot better than losing a +3 ini roll and seeing your opponent grab a goal and dodge back to safety. 

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Personally, I think I'd try and have at least one 5-7 card, two if they're good, then take the ones with effects I'd actually care about. Winning that close +1 is important one the few turns where it happens, but the rest of the time if the winner is already relatively decided by the momentum race, taking a good ability or an extra influence seems like a good plan.

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I've played 9 tournament games with the cards now and I have never experienced anyone taking a problematic amount of time choosing a card and never experienced any feel bad moment. In fact rather the opposite - being behind a lot in momentum lets you play one of your really low initiative cards and get a sweet bonus. 

I like them, and feel that a lot of complaints at this stage are exaggerated hot takes. Sure, the cards might have flaws, but they sure as hell are more interesting and fair than the dice roll and old plots imo.  

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Finally got to play the Game Plans.  Not bad.  I like it a LOT more than rolling a dice, and in the 4 turns we played, we each actually had the right cards at the right time for the MP we gained.  I ended up with both +7 cards, but the turn I used it, I actually tied my friend who had a +6 card and 1 more MP than me, so we rolled off.

Ultimately:

Pros:

- less randomness with the die roll

- players feel like they're actually choosing the effect they want, based on the MP difference

Cons:

- Both of us really feel that the effects/benefits/cons on the cards did not reflect well the +initiative values.  I mean, why are some +7/+6 cards "better" than some of the +1/+3 cards? 

 

It's a good idea, but it does need work, mainly on the effects side, and the initiative value vs INF value.

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Played a game yesterday.

None of the cards had a major impact on the game, except letting Boar more reliably one round Mist via Grudge Match and letting influence get reallocated after a player got taken out once.

Got to def stance + counter attack first activation with WTTH on Mist, and an extra influence for it, but it didn't save him anyway. Didn't get to make good use of KWTD, but I only brought one non-captain beater model so it was sort of difficult to get going.

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My friends and I have had a few matches with them; it feels like we’re playtesting cards, but it’s in the OPD now. Some feel garbage, some are great. It still feels like a die roll at the beginning of a game though-I’ve had games where my highest card is a 4 or 5, and I’ve had games where I’m holding both 7’s and a 6. A bad/good draw can dictate a lot in how the game will go.

 

They’re fun, but I don’t like the idea of using them in tournaments. If they wanted ways to add more effects or mess with the initiative roll, I wish they would have added it onto the GICs and made them official. One of my favorite parts of Guild Ball is the fact that it’s mostly open information, so I was hoping getting rid of plot cards would do away with the hidden information.

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Hmmm. My current thought process on these is a simple flow chart. Am I winning momentum race? Yes - play lowest INIT card required to auto win initiative, No, play lowest INIT card with best effect.

Takes about 10 seconds. Given I ignore the pointless +/- 1 INF silly book work effect and that most of the card effects are meh (AND you have already selected the the low INIT cards you want to play before the game) I don't think this phase will last long. But if it does, then yeah I want clock advantage for following the above strategy.

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Yeah, I tend to pick 3-4 high cards and 1-2 low cards depending on what is on the card, it's nice when you're expecting to lose the iniaitive to still get something.

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