Jump to content
Banjulhu

Another Errata, another Fish nerf

Recommended Posts

18 hours ago, Lemminkäinen said:

Out of interest, when has a publisher last killed a faction? Are you referring to Squats over twenty years ago or something more recent? And has someone aside from GW ever done it?

See above. Personal experience: I made a fully converted Vampire Coast army in WH, took half a year only to assemble and GS the models, when they simply made the whole list illegal. Much more recent than Squats. And how about the Specialist Games stuff.

19 hours ago, Lemminkäinen said:

But aside from that, many others succeed in keeping their models playable simply by errataing them when needed.

Again my personal experience, but making models playable often means making other models next to unplayable, simply because if you have a large and ever-growing selection of models, you'll always have the ones atop the power curve. Not mentioning the "special lists" and other desperate attempts that are clearly supposed to lure you into buying multiple boxes of hard to sell stuff. My point is that I don't care if a model becomes downright illegal or just becomes seriously uncompetitive. In both cases they go down the drain, until not earlier than the next edition of rules.

19 hours ago, Lemminkäinen said:

Now, die-hard fans and tournament players seem to applaud this decision but it is a bit disingenious to posit that it is either this or movement trays and gargantuans.

You are right, I just raised the point that games can easily become fat and unsustainable if the design team doesn't retain control and make hard decisions from time to time. In this case, GB is now a complex system that makes global effects extremely hard to test. By global effects I mean, for one, the union slots: if you change the rules of A&G just because of the Corsair madness, those changes will affect all the other 10 factions because they all can field A&G. Good luck with that. Even the popular drag-and-destroy Corsair list was the result of a previous A&G errata, that (I think) unintentionally made A&G full blood fish models.

19 hours ago, Lemminkäinen said:

Stating that "this is how tabletop games evolve" is a bit rich when I'm hard-pressed to name a tabletop game that evolved like this and I play about two dozen different minis games.

"This is how tabletop games evolve" was supposed to point out that each errata or new rules edition change the nature of the products you have paid for. E.g. I bought Harry only because I needed him in my butchers team. After the summer errata, I still am allowed to field him, but I don't need him anymore with his new rules. So SFG just robbed me, right? No-one told me that I was about spending my money on an appealing product that will eventually change into something I do not need. But things don't work like that.

Of course all this is just my opinion, and I easily can accept that different points exist. Also I'm sure that I'd be more than upset if I had a recently painted A&G on my table, waiting to go aboard my non-existing fish team.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, angyi said:

See above. Personal experience: I made a fully converted Vampire Coast army in WH, took half a year only to assemble and GS the models, when they simply made the whole list illegal. Much more recent than Squats. And how about the Specialist Games stuff.

Ah yeah - I simply completely forgot the variant Warhammer armylists like the Slaanesh Dark Elves and Slayer Dwarfs and such. Heck, I even own a ton of Slayers because of that!

3 hours ago, angyi said:

Again my personal experience, but making models playable often means making other models next to unplayable, simply because if you have a large and ever-growing selection of models, you'll always have the ones atop the power curve. Not mentioning the "special lists" and other desperate attempts that are clearly supposed to lure you into buying multiple boxes of hard to sell stuff. My point is that I don't care if a model becomes downright illegal or just becomes seriously uncompetitive. In both cases they go down the drain, until not earlier than the next edition of rules.

I think that this is the gist of our difference of opinion: I think that there is a difference between "You can't play this model anymore" and "Playing this model isn't necessarily optimal (for your playstyle) anymore". Harry still offers interesting and unique things to the Butchers and including him won't lose you games or anything like that even if he isn't the best possible choice for a tournament ten.

I mean, there naturally are silly depths to which a model's effectiveness can sink to which makes it completely indistinguishable from being banned (I've encountered some models in other systems that I wouldn't include in a force even if they were completely free) but those are pretty extreme outliers, I think.

But my main point was that it is far from inevitable that all minis games will periodically make a part of your minis collection unplayable as you seemed (to me) to imply.

And, in Furnace's case, he knew that A&G would become unplayable in the future but decided to get them since he liked the minis and since he felt that they would be a good addition to his Fish. But that unplayable future was supposed to be somewhere in autumn at the very earliest so now he managed what? Two games with them? Three? Something like that. So that's pretty **itty.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/6/2018 at 1:21 PM, Banjulhu said:

I would argue however that Shark has bigger problems that really do need a new edition to address, chiefly there is no middle ground to him. He either wins big and probably spoils the game for the opponent or loses big and spoils the game for the fish player

I don't know that I agree with this. With Shark, the score rarely represents how close the game is. Between two players of similar skill level, it becomes a game of hide the ball vs. pure goal-scoring. While Shark can frequently make opponents feel like they have no control over the game, I usually feel like I'm walking a tight rope with him. I personally enjoy this tension and have won games 12-2 with Shark that felt closer than games I've won 12-10 with other guilds. And I think it's rare that Shark loses big. It's hard to stop him from scoring 2 goals, even when the game is entirely out of his reach.

So it seems to me that the middle ground for Shark is just harder to see than with other teams. But if you look beyond the score, a lot of Shark games in my experience are a lot closer than they appear.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I guess I'm not sure why you guys think Corsair is being played in almost all matchups?  I have a nearly even split in what matches I'll take him into.  Shark into Masons, Butchers, Brewers, Union, Farmers.  Corsair in Alch, Hunters, Engi, Blacksmiths, Morts.   Basically, Shark into teams that I can't outfight.  

Is Corsair really a better matchup into these first guilds?  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Sunny Ravencourt said:

I guess I'm not sure why you guys think Corsair is being played in almost all matchups?  I have a nearly even split in what matches I'll take him into.  Shark into Masons, Butchers, Brewers, Union, Farmers.  Corsair in Alch, Hunters, Engi, Blacksmiths, Morts.   Basically, Shark into teams that I can't outfight.  

Is Corsair really a better matchup into these first guilds?  

I'm pretty sure Corsair used to be the pick into every guild except Farmers, because you could always outfight those guilds in your own way (Pretty sure only when receiving into Hammer though), but without any reliable method of getting around tough hide the Masons/Brewers match ups get a lot worse. I'd agree with your list for post A+G Fish except I'd still drop Corsair into Union and Butchers, as neither team generally brings tough hide.

I'll have to play against Brewers a bit more to get a feel for Gutter's damage and see which way I want to go though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎06‎/‎03‎/‎2018 at 1:37 PM, Lemminkäinen said:

 

Malifaux has removed... I think Night Terrors from Dreamer? Are there any others? I think that there must be but I can't think of any. Eden has never removed anything that I'm aware of. And they both have what? Three times? Six times the number of profiles compared to GB? A ton more, in any case.

Area of specialised knowledge ahoy- Kirai can no longer hire Nix or Snowstorm. Lelu and lelutu and Nicodems Vulture all became rare 1 rather than rare 2. Marcus can no longer hire lawyers. Rusty Alyce lost merc status. Hamlin, Misaki, Jack daw and Vonschill lost the ability to be hired as mercs by other factions.

I might have missed a few others.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎3‎/‎8‎/‎2018 at 8:41 AM, Banjulhu said:

So could Fangtooth be a thing again for use like in the good old days of season 2?

Fangtooth tech is legit. Tried it out last week vs blacksmiths last week and won 12-2. Odd part is Corsair doesn't even care about the foul odor because he just sits in his little bubble the whole game anyway. 

List: Corsair, Salt, Sakana, Greyscales, Hag, Fangtooth.

I imagine the Season 2 Shark list will still be reasonably effective as well. If memory serves it was Shark, Salt, Angel, Sakana, Greyscales, Fangtooth. dunno bout that Angel slot anymore tho.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

just some wild speculation (because who doesn't like a bit of that) but this may hint towards Fish potentially getting the minor guild update sooner rather than later..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/16/2018 at 2:13 AM, Furnace said:

I'm not sure it does though. It would be nice however. 

Certainly would, especially as they're not getting anything from UiC...admittedly, neither are Masons, Alchemists, Union, or Blacksmiths, but they didn't just have their most popular Union player taken away, either.

I 110% agree with A&G not being a Fish option anymore, but it would be nice for the Guild to get something new to try out that they don't have to wait two years for (i.e. if they're near the end of the list for a Minor Guild).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Fish-in-a-Beer said:

Certainly would, especially as they're not getting anything from UiC...admittedly, neither are Masons, Alchemists, Union, or Blacksmiths, but they didn't just have their most popular Union player taken away, either.

I 110% agree with A&G not being a Fish option anymore, but it would be nice for the Guild to get something new to try out that they don't have to wait two years for (i.e. if they're near the end of the list for a Minor Guild).

What this guy said.

A&G was better with Corsair that he was with anyone else and Corsair was already above the curve.

I'm eagerly waiting for the whalers with vKraken :P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 15/03/2018 at 3:34 PM, Redmaw said:

just some wild speculation (because who doesn't like a bit of that) but this may hint towards Fish potentially getting the minor guild update sooner rather than later..

called it..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Furnace said:

So they will be the next ones to be released then? 

If I had to guess I would say yes, followed by whatever the Butchers minor guild is.. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Redmaw said:

If I had to guess I would say yes, followed by whatever the Butchers minor guild is.. 

Sounds great! 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Based on the currently release schedule (1 minor every 2 months) I'd expect to see the Navigators mid August. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×