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Banjulhu

Another Errata, another Fish nerf

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Honestly though, this one needed to happen. A&G made Fish too well-rounded when they were originally designed to be a football-focused team. They definitely felt good to play but they were brutal to play into, especially against Corsair. While I would have liked to see more teams lose access to these models, not everyone has the same ability to set them up

If you still want some momentous damage, Gutter is still available and Corsair didn't get nerfed himself, so he's still a Take Out machine. Plus, this really doesn't change anything for Shark. All in all, this was just an acceleration of what was ultimately going to happen. I'm personally looking forward to trying out some different stuff and returning our guild's focus to football :)

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I'm not actually that surprised at all nor really complaining given Corsair, Sakana and A&G have become the core of pretty much every fish team at the tournament level it just feels a little like they are treating the symptom not the disease.

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Well I feel like I'm gonna complain a bit. I'm a new player and I read everywhere get A&G, they're great, you really want them. I did. And now I have model I do absolutely diddly with. :(

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3 minutes ago, Furnace said:

I read everywhere get A&G, they're great, you really want them. I did. And now I have model I do absolutely diddly with. :(

I agree with that. I'm not sure where to used them now. They don't fit into Union as there are better options you can take, and I can't see where to fit them into other guilds.

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34 minutes ago, ningu said:

They don't fit into Union as there are better options you can take

I know it's the fish subforum, and I'm sorry for the digression but I have to "strongly" disagree with this ;)

In my opinion, you really want A&G in your 10 (whichever captain you are playing) . There are matchup (engineers for example) where they make your life that much easyier. They are great with vRage and I love to play them in a 2-2 3risket team too.

Grace is their best friend.

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Well this is how tabletop games evolve. In GB you lose a model here and there, say one or two in every four years, which enables the game to make progress while maintaining its balance. Some publishers kill entire factions, because their games have gone down a dead end, and they have no other choice than to hit the reset button. Others do not withdraw models at all, just make new rule sets and force you to buy shitloads of their unsold stock of badly designed units. Your claim is, of course, valid, but this is the price we have to pay if we want to have fun with GB for a long time, with a great community but without movement trays and models on 240mm bases. And A&G with Corsair were simply bad for the whole game. Just my opinion. I know it is no joy to be the sacrificial lamb.

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Yeah wow I didn't see this coming. It's a massive disappointment considering how absolute trash some of the underused models in guild are. 

How did this change not also come with a fix for Kraken or something? Soften the blow a bit. Super disappointing. 

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49 minutes ago, Furnace said:

Well I feel like I'm gonna complain a bit. I'm a new player and I read everywhere get A&G, they're great, you really want them. I did. And now I have model I do absolutely diddly with. :(

The few times I played sBrisket, A&G were so nice to have on the field. Brisket is hard to stop when she only needs to score two goals and A&G bring explosive damage with less set up than other brawling options. So they're definitely in the 10 even if they aren't an every game drop.

I do understand your frustration though. I really don't have much interest in playing vRage or Blackheart and now I have a bunch of models that won't work outside of Union. Ultimately, I'll either sell them or grit my teeth and pick up a second captain (sBrisket is super fun and I want to play her again in the future).

 

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1 hour ago, Frankanelli said:

Yeah wow I didn't see this coming. It's a massive disappointment considering how absolute trash some of the underused models in guild are. 

How did this change not also come with a fix for Kraken or something? Soften the blow a bit. Super disappointing. 

I feel like this was a tone down for tournament players that were asking for the farmers nerf. Not a full set errata where improvements can be made and underused models made better. I think THAT errata will happen at the intro of season 4. No need to fret, fish are still awesome and will continue their winning ways. :)

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47 minutes ago, THE_DOJO_MIKE said:

I feel like this was a tone down for tournament players that were asking for the farmers nerf. Not a full set errata where improvements can be made and underused models made better. I think THAT errata will happen at the intro of season 4. No need to fret, fish are still awesome and will continue their winning ways. :)

Corsair will continue the win certainly, maybe not as much but he won't stop being the Fish pick into nearly everything in a tournament.

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16 hours ago, Furnace said:

Well I feel like I'm gonna complain a bit. I'm a new player and I read everywhere get A&G, they're great, you really want them. I did. And now I have model I do absolutely diddly with. :(

I don't see your point because it was announced for months. Once the minor guilds are out and unless you play Union, ALL your Union models become worthless.

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13 minutes ago, Furnace said:

Are they out? 

As a mortician player I am the first having 4 worthless Union models. :(  The next months the other guilds will follow. The SFG release schedule will determine how long your models will see the field. I wouldn't invest in something that will disappear somewhere between now and SFG knows how long for the Fish minor is released. 

I just want to say that you can't say that the disappearance of your Union choices wasn't announced long ago.

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I heard this change was coming on the grapevine a few weeks back and for my self the change makes a lot of sense. A&G have phenomenal damage output and have the big drawback of being slow and take a long to get into the correct position. 

Corsair completely takes away any negative of A&G, with the ability to drag paired with lure in the same guild. Very often it would end in a player in a situation having Ganging Up applied by 2-3 players before A&G start hitting. You're then looking at a Singled Out from Greede and Averisse happily goes M6-7 on every hit. It turned Corsair into a scrumming control captain to a captain who's team would 100% delete a player with no questions asked while completely negating all of the negatives A&G should bring to the team. 

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If "Momentous damage is not intended to be a strong point of the Fishermen" it would be nice if the team had something that makes their actual intended strong point, presumably football/scoring, strong again.

Corsair and A&G became the big thing after last years errata mostly because the team was struggling in the other aspects of the game.

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1 hour ago, Banjulhu said:

If "Momentous damage is not intended to be a strong point of the Fishermen" it would be nice if the team had something that makes their actual intended strong point, presumably football/scoring, strong again.

Corsair and A&G became the big thing after last years errata mostly because the team was struggling in the other aspects of the game.

I really don't think Shark is struggling to score with due respect :)

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I would argue however that Shark has bigger problems that really do need a new edition to address, chiefly there is no middle ground to him. He either wins big and probably spoils the game for the opponent or loses big and spoils the game for the fish player

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21 minutes ago, Banjulhu said:

I would argue however that Shark has bigger problems that really do need a new edition to address, chiefly there is no middle ground to him. He either wins big and probably spoils the game for the opponent or loses big and spoils the game for the fish player

I don't really think that's a problem it's the nature of a captain that only goal is to get goals. Maybe we just disagree on that though which is fair :)

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25 minutes ago, Banjulhu said:

I would argue however that Shark has bigger problems that really do need a new edition to address, chiefly there is no middle ground to him. He either wins big and probably spoils the game for the opponent or loses big and spoils the game for the fish player

Aye. I agree that is a pretty big problem in design. 

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20 hours ago, angyi said:

Well this is how tabletop games evolve. In GB you lose a model here and there, say one or two in every four years, which enables the game to make progress while maintaining its balance. Some publishers kill entire factions, because their games have gone down a dead end, and they have no other choice than to hit the reset button. Others do not withdraw models at all, just make new rule sets and force you to buy shitloads of their unsold stock of badly designed units. Your claim is, of course, valid, but this is the price we have to pay if we want to have fun with GB for a long time, with a great community but without movement trays and models on 240mm bases. And A&G with Corsair were simply bad for the whole game. Just my opinion. I know it is no joy to be the sacrificial lamb.

Out of interest, when has a publisher last killed a faction? Are you referring to Squats over twenty years ago or something more recent? And has someone aside from GW ever done it?

But aside from that, many others succeed in keeping their models playable simply by errataing them when needed. SFG seem to have chosen a pretty aggressive stance in outright invalidating a very large percentage of choices from the collections of gamers. Now, die-hard fans and tournament players seem to applaud this decision but it is a bit disingenious to posit that it is either this or movement trays and gargantuans.

Stating that "this is how tabletop games evolve" is a bit rich when I'm hard-pressed to name a tabletop game that evolved like this and I play about two dozen different minis games.

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17 minutes ago, Lemminkäinen said:

Out of interest, when has a publisher last killed a faction? Are you referring to Squats over twenty years ago or something more recent? And has someone aside from GW ever done it?

But aside from that, many others succeed in keeping their models playable simply by errataing them when needed. SFG seem to have chosen a pretty aggressive stance in outright invalidating a very large percentage of choices from the collections of gamers. Now, die-hard fans and tournament players seem to applaud this decision but it is a bit disingenious to posit that it is either this or movement trays and gargantuans.

Stating that "this is how tabletop games evolve" is a bit rich when I'm hard-pressed to name a tabletop game that evolved like this and I play about two dozen different minis games.

GW removed Allies as an option from a lot of armies relatively recently.

Warmachine made a lot of options (especially mercenary ones) much less playable recently with their rules changes.

WotC remove tons of cards from Standard every year, and valuable cards get banhammered on occasion.

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7 minutes ago, Gauntlet said:

GW removed Allies as an option from a lot of armies relatively recently.

Warmachine made a lot of options (especially mercenary ones) much less playable recently with their rules changes.

WotC remove tons of cards from Standard every year, and valuable cards get banhammered on occasion.

I would leave CCG's out of this as they are a very different beast.

Malifaux has removed... I think Night Terrors from Dreamer? Are there any others? I think that there must be but I can't think of any. Eden has never removed anything that I'm aware of. And they both have what? Three times? Six times the number of profiles compared to GB? A ton more, in any case.

Bushido is also stable. Kings of War?

And the hundred or so different historical rules sets as well :lol:

Infinity did kill the insect aliens, though (or are they still tournament legal proxies for some other profiles? I'm not sure).

But my point is that "this is how wargames evolve" is outright false. It's actually really rare that they evolve in that way. Probably because it tends to piss off the customers :P

Edit: Was Sonnia able to hire Fire Gamin under first edition? I seem to recall so. So that's another one removed from Malifaux.

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Well malifaux did remove the avatar models from the basic game but left them as legal proxies for emissaries and wrote rules for them later on where they can still be played as avatars of themselves. 

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56 minutes ago, Lemminkäinen said:

 

Malifaux has removed... I think Night Terrors from Dreamer? Are there any others?

They removed a LOT of players in the edition change. They removed the way that several Masters played and replaced it with new ways. 

Point made but change is part of games all around. 

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