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Devilsquid

Being taken for Granite...

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Hey there sports fans!

It's no secret that I'm a longtime fan of Granite, and I understand why many people don't like putting her on the field. She does require some finesse to get the most out of, so I thought I'd share my thoughts on how I like to utilize her, in the hopes that more players give her a chance.

First off she's slow. Like, really slow. But there are ways around that, and the proper use of Foundation, Between a Rock, and support from your team can help mitigate that, and get Granite to places you didn't think she could.

I prefer kicking off with her, because as she's going to be the center point of my scrum, she needs to hustle up the field, and the rest of the Masons are easily fast enough to keep up. If you kick off with her, she can clear the line with the ball, and then make her Foundation move. That puts her 6" up the field after kick off, on par (or better) than most other masons.

Once the game starts, you always should keep an eye out for ways to trigger Between a Rock...From AOEs, to character plays, to attacks (even parting blows) every time someone on your side takes damage, you should see if you want to proc BaR. While 3" is not a huge number, it can make a difference in getting Granite into position to make attacks without having to move her. You can even use it to force Unpredictable before Granite activates, so she can just walk up to the model afterwards and hit them. Personally, i like taking Vet Honour with Granite, because 'Team Player' extends the area where you can trigger BaR, and even lets you trigger it off Granite being the target of the attack. Smelling Salts also helps you clear conditions off of Granite, which is definitely not a favorite of hers (FIRE BAD). vHarmony also lets you get around 2" melee attacks by allowing you to declare a counter attack with Granite, shunt the damage off to vH with Team Player, then Between a Rock into melee range with the 2" model in time for you to make your counter attack.

So that's how I move Granite around. Now to look at how the rest of the team can help her do her job.

Masons have the best options when it comes to re-positioning opposing models. Hammer and Tower can easily do the job, Wrecker can shove multiple models into her path, and even Honour, Mallet, and Lucky can shove folks an inch in her direction. Picking where you want your fight to be, and then funneling your opponents models into granite is part of the puzzle in getting mileage out of her. There's plenty of options in Masons that allow you to shove people where you want them to be, so getting them into Granite's hands shouldn't be that Hard.

Final Thoughts:

- She needs a battle buddy. While she does have a lot of health, she can't hold off 2/3 models by herself for long without some support. Lucky and Tower are my two non-captain favorites, as they both offer her some options to help her do well. Lucky can clear a condition off of her, and can do some solid work with her assistance and is harder to hit. Tower can shove people into her with his push and beatback, and tooled up on Granite is not a terrible thing, giving her 2 Mom damage on 1, and 3 Mom damage on 3 (or 2 mom and guild ball on 3).

- Gut and String - This is why you bring Granite to the party. Once you have someone in her reach, G&S keeps them there. She doesn't need to be faster than them if they become slower than her, and the -1 Def is always a helpful thing. And since you can't clear G&S with momentum, it will affect models all turn. Throw in Tarpit for good measure, and models will be -6/-6 movement. Even Fillet is a 1/3 after that.

- Earlier the Better - Granite is my first/second activation, depending on the situation on the field, and position of the ball. Getting G&S off on a key model drastically limits their options for the turn, and makes all attacks against them easier because of the -1 Def.

- Ball Management - She's a 3/6" kick, so using the ball to dodge her up into position is always an option as well (even better if Mallet is near her).

So there you have it, my thoughts on Granite. Now, this in no way means she's the best choice for every team you face, and you will have to work to get her into position against good players, but if they're reacting to her presence by either avoiding her, or targeting her with character plays to keep her out of their way, then she's doing her job by sucking up attention that might have more impact on your other players.

Thanks for reading, and I hope you give the big lady another chance.

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Cheers for the write up. Do you have specific match ups you like or dislike Granite in? I'm going to try and give her and Chisel a decent play in some casual games coming up as I keep meaning to play with Honour. Need to stop crunching on Hammer.

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A 6” threat range in her activation is kind of hard to deal with when everyone else has 8” or more. 

But I agree that she has her uses. 

@Devilsquidhave you tried her against Thresher and if so, what is your experience?

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36 minutes ago, Jotnebane said:

A 6” threat range in her activation is kind of hard to deal with when everyone else has 8” or more. 

But I agree that she has her uses. 

@Devilsquidhave you tried her against Thresher and if so, what is your experience?

The big thing is how much can you move her before her activation, because with a well time Between a Rock, she has a 9" threat. 

 

As for Thresher, he's not a good guage for how good a model is because 1) he's above the power curve, 2) he can wreck almost any model in the game, and 2) he's getting an errata soon. 

But I would likely put Granite near a front bait model so when Thresher comes in to them she can Rock into melee with him for a counter-attack. Even if all she does is G&S him, that sets him up for other attacks. 

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Have been considering this as a Granite base:

Honour (has ways of speeding up Granite)

Brick and Marbles (counter charge bubbles)

Tower ('free' defensive stance, knockdown support and tooled up on an assisted Honour)

Flint (for goal pressure)

 

The idea being to pull an opponent into a middle ground scrum with Granite and the counter charge models. Honour becomes a murder bot with the right buffs and can make Granite and Brick resilient with the legendary.

Not sure its any good but will try and at least give it a go in the near future..

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For me Granite fulfills her tarpit nature while at the same time providing reliable access to defense debuffs. I've used her against a few teams and found that she's brilliant for setting up enemy models for the take out while being able to survive some hits as well. Now in balance I will say that, yes, she can die if your opponent puts enough into her. But then again what model doesn't? Additionally if my opponent is going out of their way to crowd out Granite and grind her down then she's doing what I want her to do. I managed to utterly frustrate an Ox butchers player with Granite in one game by dangling her out in front of my line and away from the safety of the double counter charge bubble. Due to his lack of 2" melee models (Boar had been on the receiving end of a Honour/Marbles doubleteam) I was able to control who engaged me. Resisting the first knockdown and having access to a push on 1 meant any counter attacks that she got pushed my opponent away. Now yes he made the mistake of not going base to base but on the one occasion he did I was able to get the double push result on the counter leaving Boiler standing around with his hands in his pockets while Princess growled menacingly at Granite. Also add to the fact Granite was able to push a fully loaded, legendary Ox away after his first attack cemented her as my MVP that game.

 

I get that some people may not like her and that she may not necessarily fit their play style but I feel she fits into my team quite well and my tournament roster would not be without her.

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Anyone tried Granite against Brewers with vDeci?

Her Sturdy should help against the KD on the charge.
48.5% chance to wrap to the KD, but then there is no damage on the charge at all.
72.8% to wrap to the KD with Bag of Quaffers so maybe not that good in that situation.

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17 hours ago, Jotnebane said:

Anyone tried Granite against Brewers with vDeci?

Her Sturdy should help against the KD on the charge.
48.5% chance to wrap to the KD, but then there is no damage on the charge at all.
72.8% to wrap to the KD with Bag of Quaffers so maybe not that good in that situation.

Why would vDecimate need to worry about that? She has 2” reach, she’ll just kill Granite.

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3 minutes ago, ForestRambo said:

Why would vDecimate need to worry about that? She has 2” reach, she’ll just kill Granite.

24 Health and Sturdy means she might not be that easy to kill on the charge even with +2 damage.

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I think Decimate's plan is probably to just walk up and hit her four times without bothering with the KD. She'll pretty reliably reach her :mom3: , so that's 20 damage flat if she's on +2 and swings four times.

On each TAC7 swing with two damage buffs:

4 damage: 10%

5 damage: 62%

8 damage: 28%

If you Bonus Time to TAC8:

4 damage: 3%

5 damage: 37%

8 damage: 37%

9 damage: 23%

Now the best counterplay option you have is probably 'don't let Decimate jog into engagement with you' - but I don't think Granite improves things much.

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Keep out of range is basicly the only defense we have against a lot of stuff.
I wish we could out threat some of the other guilds without having to rely on Superior Strategy or a 1 die Marked Target.

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58 minutes ago, Gauntlet said:

The counter charge bubbles also are pretty solid at defending against people who want to walk up to you and hit you.

When receiving the Brewers can generate some momentum and vDeci can threat 16" on a jog if you dodge her up on a successful pass. Enough to threaten your deployment line. Add another 2" if she spends an INF on acrobatics.

When kicking I assume they can't generate any momentum and her threat is still 16" from their deployment on a jog if she did the kick off.

So basically the only same spot out on the flank or behind our deployment line.

I just reckoned that Granite should have a fair chance of surviving the first turn and wondered if anyone had used her against vDeci.
Even against Lucky and his 4/1 she has a fair chance, 72,6%, of hitting that Stagger Knockdown on a charge with Bag of Quaffers so it's not like we have anyone who she has problems with. 

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Ran a little test line up yesterday now with vChisel out. Hammer, Marbles, Brick, Granite, vHarmony, vChisel against Piper, Squeak, Scourge, Pelage, Miasma, vGrave - 12-3. Granite got 4 inf moved to her and killed piper with a last/first activation inlcuding a tarpit and later killed pelage with Iron fist. Hammer scored the other 2 take outs and a goal. 

Being able to soak conditions for granite, not worrying about dead inf on her with the inf switch, and vHarmony to take damage and let granite move made the line up very sturdy. And engaging early gets punished with assist too - gut&string + tar pit can keep people in for an assist finish too. It also felt very good to switch 2 inf over too vHarmony when I needed smelling salt - without having to pre allocate the 2. 

I am not saying it is a new top tier 6 or close, but for the first time playing her I felt she actually "worked" as a player. Before I was always worried putting inf on her in fear of it being invalidated. And I did try to make her work last year, to no success. 

It felt very "Grange cage" like, but with Hammer in the front. 

As for kicking threats (as discussed above) - goad is an extremely powerful (broken) tool. Especially with countercharge bubbles.

Highly anecdotal evidence with just the one game of course, but I just wanted to throw the idea out there for discussion and if someone else wanted to give it a go. 

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On 6/25/2018 at 8:53 AM, Warpstoned said:

Highly anecdotal evidence with just the one game of course, but I just wanted to throw the idea out there for discussion and if someone else wanted to give it a go. 

Looking forward to your future testing. I'd love to see a line up that makes Granite work and your match report makes her sound cool.

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On 3/4/2018 at 10:16 AM, Scapegoat_Stephen said:

 

Without a doubt, v.Chisel makes the perfect Battle Buddy for Granite. Condition removal, damage/melee boost, influence shifting, plus 2" melee and ARM 2. 

Making Granite TAC 8 AND +1 DAMAGE  is really strong. 

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Granite works really well with all the veterans, it seems. Chisel keeps her condition free and gives her some attack bonuses. Harmony can clear conditions, take damage so Granite can get up the Pitch faster, and brings Marked Target to give Granite a 8" charge range. Bring in Honour with Superior Strategy and Quick Time, and suddenly you can get Granite anywhere anytime. Marbles can Goad someone to force targets to come closer to Granite (or at least not move further away), or Wrecker can just push them closer using Ramming Speed. Bringing Tower, Lucky, Mallet, Flint or Brick will be flex.

I don't know if putting all your resources into setting Granite up is worth it due to her only getting :mom2: on 3 results and higher results are non-momentous, but it'll be quite interesting to try it out sometime. 

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I would think Granite is a massive liability here. Granite's biggest weakness is once she's taken out, she's gone. You might have the game plan card to help, but unreliable. And with one less man in the channel, brewers will eat you alive. Decimate2 can easily get +2 DMG and Tac 7. If she staggers Granite, she can start to easily wrap, and that not only generates mom for Brewers but also probably seals Granite's fate. 

You want faster or more disruptive models into Brewers now or Decimate2 will take you to the cleaners. 

 

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@EpicChris hits the nail on the head here.

The current meta is so focused on having strong but agile beaters/strikers, that having a slow-moving centerpiece - which isn't all that durable to begin with - is just choosing to start with a disadvantage.

Alchemists will slow her down with Smoke, or just play around her with Midas. Blacksmiths can easy delete her with their massive damage dealing capacity, or run around her with Alloy and Ferrite. Brewers have Vetcimate. Ox can readily delete her, and Fillet can run circles around her. Ballista can control her, Pin Vice is too fast. Thresher and Grange/Fallow delete her. Fishermen run around. Falconers delete her from range. Hunters control her. Hammer deletes her, and Honour and Flint will just go for the 3-0. Scalpel is way too fast, and she'll never be able to catch Obulus. Rat Catchers Reverie, do I need to say more? vRage deletes her, Blackheart dodges around her little scrum. Even looking at the Order, I don't see any way that taking Granite would be a good thing.

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I mean I think Granite has her place maybe, sometimes. Possibly. But definitely not into vDecimate. vChisel however is hot sauce - take her and Hammer the shit out of vDecimate.

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If you receive, why aren't vDecimate goaded? (even then you can jog out Granite with team player, though you might want Tower for tooled up in that match up)

If you kick against a ranged/second wind team, you are most likely not playing Granite. 

Just to be clear, my post was in general about Granite, I don't see her that useful against esters/decimate brewers in particular. 

And I don't see you setting up her as the main plan. She is just a sturdy midfielder that can get a lot of work done if the opportunity presents itself. 

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Even with slow models like Brick and Mallet on the team, I'd say the two things that stops me from considering her is her movement and her  1" reach.

Her playbook is nice enough and when they fix her by increasing her speed, gives her 2" like her massive build suggests and adds Protective Instinct so Between a Rock starts to matter, then I'll try her out for a few games again and see if I can make room for her in my 10.

But I think she has the coolest model of all the Masons and I love what they obviously wanted her to do, I just don't think they hit the target.

 

 

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