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Perkins kind of hinted that some little used masons models will get an update for S4

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7 hours ago, MrFox said:

Interesting take on chisel. I'll try her again thinking on those good points.

I agree I think the issue is without knowing what a models core design principle is it can be difficult to identify their role sometimes. So Chisel's fluff paints her as a murder bot and some of her abilities indicate that too but she clearly isn't in play. Did we all assume she was supposed to be a beat stick and therefore ignore the other attributes? I will give her another go with those things in mind Yann thank you for your insight :)

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15 hours ago, S_A_T_S said:

Good points on Chisel, but until the minor guild is released, I think Mist does all that and scores goals without dying as easily.

Possibly, but you can't swap mist to doing damage as the situation needs, and his low TAC is sometimes an issue. Plus, he doesn't benefit from Guild Only abilities like Tooled Up. 

And Chisel survives just fine if you heal her and don't get trapped into thinking you need to trigger pain response. 

1 hour ago, Scapegoat_Stephen said:

I agree I think the issue is without knowing what a models core design principle is it can be difficult to identify their role sometimes. So Chisel's fluff paints her as a murder bot and some of her abilities indicate that too but she clearly isn't in play. Did we all assume she was supposed to be a beat stick and therefore ignore the other attributes? I will give her another go with those things in mind Yann thank you for your insight :)

Well, she has crazy, and a damage boost when she's hurt. Many folks assumed she was a varients of Cossett, and when she first came out, you could Superior Strategy her and crazy twice to trigger Pain so she'd be TAC 9, and +2 damage with tooled up. 

SF errated that because she wasn't intended to be a cruise missle. 

So she can do damage, but like most Masons, damage is a secondary thing, hence the high numbers being non momentous. 

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Wow. I haven't see this much love for Granite on this forum in like ... ever. Just to hear that people think she's okay, but not able to make the cut on the tough choices for tournament 10 is a ray of bright sunshine. 

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9 hours ago, Von Ether said:

Wow. I haven't see this much love for Granite on this forum in like ... ever. Just to hear that people think she's okay, but not able to make the cut on the tough choices for tournament 10 is a ray of bright sunshine. 

Doesn't mean she doesn't need work.

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I think it's up to the player to make her work. 

Is she easy to use? Not really, but if you utilize her and support her, she can do a lot of work for you, and Masons are really well equipped to move her around, and move enemy models into her reach. 

If you kick off with her, she starts 6" up the field. Have Honour dodge her 2" up, and she's 8" up the field. Put vHarmony near her, and you can likely trigger Between a Rock and have her 11" up the field. And that's before she activates. 

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I think she struggles more with finding a place in the squad which is a combination of being difficult to use compared to other models and her abysmal speed stat.

Assuming we stay at 10 players in the next OPD Granite, Chisel, Wrecker and Lucky already struggle to get in.

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On 3/2/2018 at 11:31 AM, Scapegoat_Stephen said:

I agree I think the issue is without knowing what a models core design principle is it can be difficult to identify their role sometimes. So Chisel's fluff paints her as a murder bot and some of her abilities indicate that too but she clearly isn't in play.

Is that just me? 

Sometimes I read the fluff for a fig and see a disconnect. Granite was like that for me.

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Granite's aesthetic design actually helped draw me to the game in the first place. My subsequent disappointment with her performance on the pitch and analysis of her card, however, make me feel like I'm having some kind of dissociative episode whenever I watch people trying to defend her. It's deeply surreal to me.

Perhaps the most damning thing is the arguments in her favor. The most common I've seen on this forum is, "Granite's fine/okay/pretty good, I'd just never ever waste a 1 slot out of 10 to even humor the idea of fielding her.".

Along those lines, I've heard a member of my local playgroup try to insist, "She's not bad, she's just 'Masons bad'. The other Masons options are just so good, she's crowded out.". Okay, here's a thought experiment, imagine that Granite is totally factionless. What if anyone could field her! Is there any team that would? I'm sure you can maybe think of some magical christmas land combo scenarios, but I promise you, if you playtested it, she'd underperform. EVERY TEAM IS COMPOSED OF OPTIONS BETTER THEN GRANITE.

I sympathize with the case Devilsquid has made. I once tried to convince myself of much the same, but here's the thing, his case for her is essentially just as condemning. In the best case scenario described, Granite is a sinkhole of utility. A huge amount of strategy and resources must be committed in the name of bringing her into a position of being merely functional.

Ideally, every piece in a coach's team should grant some kind of advantage, but for fun and balance sake, also contain some flaw or drawback the opponent can potentially exploit. The recurring, bone deep, theme of Granite is that she works the opposite way. She's a drawback that her coach can sometimes potentially exploit for some kind of advantage.

But why so? She's got a great playbook with good character plays, decent TAC, good kick, lots of health, and (AND!) out of activation movement. Out of activation movement! Well, lets come back to that.

To my mind Granite has three core problems, but the third seems to be invisible to most people, so requires some explaining. So, in order from most to least obvious...

1) She Is Literally Hobbled: At some point in Granite's childhood someone broke her ankles and set them incorrectly to insure she'd never run again. She's so slow that if (when) she gets taken out, she's basically just flatly gone from the game. In most games it'll be a glacial age and a lot of wasted sprinting influence before she can waddle back to a position where she'll be relevant again. At Defense 2, she'll be hit with every single enemy character play, meaning that once you do get her in a good position, your opponent most often can and will easily fix that for you. 

2) She Is Easy To Ignore: Her 1'' melee zone is unforgiving and unforgivable. I can understand not wanting her to be able to apply a 2'' zone offensively, but not being able to effectively project gang ups/crowd outs, threaten Parting Blows, or reliably counterattack, means she fundamentally cannot fulfill the basic requirements of her archetype. She's meant to be a viable alternative to Brick, but Brick passively generates a 6'' aura of control for no Influence, while Granite projects 3'' of control for 1 influence and lost tempo from activating. Name a guild and I can point you to a model who does a better job of gumming up the pitch more reliably. 

More often then not it only takes 1 influence totally paralyze her, to punt her helplessly out of position, or 1 momentum to glide past untouched and indifferent. 

3) Most of Her Traits Are Secretly Penalties: 'Determination', 'Between a Rock...', and 'Foundation' are not benefits, they're partial refunds. This, I think, is core to what makes Granite's card objectively bad.

'Foundation' does not grant Granite "extra" moment. Its effect is functionally identical to "This model has [MOV 6''/8''] on the first turn of the game". 'Between a Rock...' is only once per turn, meaning Granite it elevated from hobbled all the way to average MOV for a turn if a friendly model takes damage from an enemy action while within 4'' of her. [DEF 2+] [ARM 2] leaves her so vulnerable so often in practice 'Determination' often feels like, "This (DEF 3+) model has [-1] DEF unless crowded out".

I'm partially convinced Granite must have been insanely broken in some early iteration of design, leading Steamforged to massively over-correct before rushing to release for some reason. The easiest way to fix Granite (and yes, she badly needs fixing) might be to just remove all her traits but Sturdy and refund all the deficits attached to them.

Would anyone draft Granite competitively if she had [MOV 6''/8''] [DEF 3+] [ARM 2] and Sturdy as her only trait? I think it might be worth trying out on the table. It'd essentially make her almost unique as a model, one who's main gimmick is having virtually no gimmicks, just good to decent stats. 

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Granite was an experiment in whether they could push the envelope on movement. Turns out - you can't. Once Granite is taken out she is out. There is no way with 3" MOV you are getting her back into the game. That's really really bad. Also, her slow MOV means that any debuff cripples her special power of a Jog when a team mate is attacked. Worse, Between a Rock has a 4" range and she only has a 3" MOV! meaning she can't even engage the model being attacked! Compare Fallow. She CAN reach the attacker and thus works as intended.

Granite is bad. I'm not saying she doesn't work or that she hasn't got game if your opponent runs into her. But otherwise she does not work as she is designed and at 2+/2 is a punching bag or worse a Character Play pinata. And while she might act as a distraction - if the Mason player puts ANY INF on to her, the opponent is instantly rewarded for putting a MOV debuff on her that she can't clear (such as Blind, Heavy Burden, Gut & String etc) as then that INF is completely wasted.

What she SHOULD have is:

MOV stat of 4"/6" (which needs to be the lowest they ever go so models can get back into the fight), some form of Taunt such as Goad that forces enemy players to go to her (yes I know it's on Marbles - put it on her as well or transfer it) and Protective Instinct so that enemies can't just ignore her. Also a special rule which means she never suffers MOV debuffs would be nicely thematic (call it Unstoppable or Juggernaut or something). (NOTE maybe call it "I'm the Juggernaut..." because that would be hilarious and empowering).

Oh and get rid of Determination - its trash. Replace with straight DEF 3+. If Honour can run in her armour, so can Granite.

She has a gorgeous playbook and is a beautiful model - but your opponents can switch her off very easily. 

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