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Jotnebane

Perkins kind of hinted that some little used masons models will get an update for S4

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What do you think dear mates, if it will be true, which model will be updated first? And what will be the update?

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Ratchet and Hoist throw hand grenades under the Mason's team wagon. The entire team is wiped out and the Mason's are then not a playable team in season 4. Sorry to have to break this to you. I'm under an NDA, but I just couldn't help myself.

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Bugger.
Good thing S4 is still quite a few months away so I can get another team before Masons end up in Guild Ball Hall of Fame.

I guess Granite and Chisel have a good chance of making it since they seldom travel with the Masons team wagon to games as they stay home all the time. Wonder what they'll do when all the others are gone? ;)

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I think Granite is perfectly balanced and is worth taking against the half of the guilds that want some take-outs and have bad board control at range (butchers, blacksmiths, farmers, union, brewers, masons). As I've often said, Chisel needs at a minimum momentous 2 damage on 3 hits to be considered. She probably needs more and it would be great to receive the meat-hook treatment. To take her over the top, they could shorten her playbook to make wraps possible. At the moment she has a beaters kick stat but pathetic momentous damage results and a long playbook.

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I've tried Granite against Thresher and combined with Brick she created enough of a tar pit to deny Farmers a turn 1 take-out, but I still don't think shell make my 10 for a tournament.

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I would expect the first model to be looked at is Chisel, I feel like she has the most problems in the guild. I would then expect Granite to been taken a look at, apart from that I feel Masons are in a exceptionally good state. 

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9 minutes ago, ForestRambo said:

I would expect the first model to be looked at is Chisel, I feel like she has the most problems in the guild. I would then expect Granite to been taken a look at, apart from that I feel Masons are in a exceptionally good state. 

I agree.
Granite is mostly fine, she could use someting along the lines of Fallows Protective Instinct to make Between a Rock... work better, but apart from that she is mostly fine, just not good enough to warrant a permanent place among my 10. Maybe if there are a lot of Blacksmiths and Farmers at a tournament, but I find there are other options that are more versatile.

Chisel on the other hand sound so great when you first hear about her, then you look at that 7 long playbook and you just leave her at home. Her playbook needs to be a bit shorter, and as @Mr. Grumble said she needs to have a :mom2: result earlier. Painful Rage should probably activate at a higher HP as well.

But S4 is a long way off and I'm more curious about what kind of minor guild the Masosn will get than what changes S4 will bring to the team members.

Edited by Jotnebane
just added stuff

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I have recently switched to Masons, but I dont feel we have any obvious weaknesses. 

Making a 10 man was hard, because most of our players are just really good. Finding a 6 man for a match is mostly 5 autopicks and one flex slot.

That said, I have no room for Wrecker, but he feels good enough. Marbles is just amazing as an Honour player. 

Also in my 10, here is no room for Granite and Chisel. Granite feels okay, but not good enough. Chisel needs more damage to be a glass cannon. 

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22 minutes ago, Mattias said:

Also in my 10, here is no room for Granite and Chisel. Granite feels okay, but not good enough. Chisel needs more damage to be a glass cannon. 

In your opinion, what they have to do with Granite to be good enough for your 10?

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37 minutes ago, Zozo said:

In your opinion, what they have to do with Granite to be good enough for your 10?

Her playbook is solid. Early momentous results, :momKD: on 2 hits, everything you can ask for, but she's sooooo slow. Even with the free jog at the start of the jog and Between a Rock she just never manages to get to where I want her and her 1" melee does not help.

So I guess a bit more speed or reach would go a long way and maybe also something in the lines of protective instinct as I mentioned above.

 

Still, the biggest problem is not her, but the rest of the team.

The 10 fills up so quick.

Both captains, Marbles, Brick, Flint, Mallet are all in, then you want Harmony to get that sweet linked activation and Lucky and vet.Harmony for contidion removal in case you are facing Smoke or other contidion heavy teams. That leaves just 1 spot and Towers Defend the Ground and Tooled Up tends to win me over. And then there are union picks.

So no, she just don't make the cut.

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Thanks for your answer. My basic 9 are this: Honour, Hammer, Marbles, Brick, Flint, Mallet, oHarmony, vetHarmony, Minx. So there is only one free pick, and I don't know what I do. I like Wrecker, but it is not so necessary usual. I never tried Chisel and Granite, but I want to try them in the near future. And I really want to try Mist too, but (because of the minors guild) I want to practice a full mason team. So I pick this line next time: Honour, Hammer, Flint, Brick, Marbles, Mallet, oHarmony, vetHarmony, Chisel and Granite/Lucky. :)

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I think Masons need help anyway. :P

Looking at Longshanks' Guild statistics and filtering them from January this year and on, we're now the worst playing Guild (alongside Blacksmiths with the same win%). 45.5%, with Hammer at 48% and Honour at 38%. 

This is of course a joking remark, as I know that numbers only tell you so much, but I have to say that it's a worrying trend. The numbers have been dropping since I regularly started checking them around November. :wacko:

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I mean as useful are those numbers are, I really don't think they're indicative of the true story. The Masons being in Kick off doesn't help there win % but those captains % only tell you a very small part of the story.

Locally in the U.K last weekend there was a event with like 6 or 7 of the U.Ks top 20 there and was won by Masons. Another great example is Theron, he has a terrible terrible win % but I'm easily above a 80% win rate with Theron. 

Masons are in a excellent place right now having two immensely strong captains and being able to two bring two different line ups to support them. Once my Fishermen are off the painting table the Masons are going onto it. 

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@ForestRamboAaron, I completely agree with you on your last statements. This Guild can bring two very different styles to the Pitch, and has enough variance within its total roster to always bring a competitive 10. Even when there are 2 models (almost) never considered as viable.

I just find it really hard to digest seeing my 'baby' on the bottom of the list, when the top players are always talking about how strong and versatile the Guild actually is. #RightInTheFeels :unsure:

To get back on-topic, I've already stated my concerns on Granite and Chisel in earlier threads.

  • In my opinion, Granite needs either more speed (+1"/+1" is enough) or a 2" melee zone and something like Fallow's Protective Instinct. That would be enough.
  • Chisel on the other hand is a total mixed bag. A 7-long playbook with :mom2: on column 4 can hardly be called a beater playbook. Sure, there's Feel My Pain to try and scare people into not attacking her, and Sadism can keep her health up (and both work together quite nicely), but at 3+/1, 13 life and Crazy, she basically dies to a stiff breeze. Any decently set up beater should be able to kill her in 3 attacks. There's also the problem of activation order. She wants to be the first one in as you want people to attack her, but that means she'll be ganged up on easily and the efficiency of Feel My Pain would be very low. Let's say she lives through that turn. When the next turn starts and you don't win initiative, she's standing there in the middle of the scrum without any of her Plays online. That's just an easy 2 VP to the enemy right there. I just find it SO hard to find a decent enough spot for her due to those liabilities... I do like the skillset of her and I wouldn't want her to just become a Cosset clone, so I think the solution should mostly be found in her Character Plays and her life total or defensive stats.

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56 minutes ago, ForestRambo said:

I mean as useful are those numbers are, I really don't think they're indicative of the true story. The Masons being in Kick off doesn't help there win % but those captains % only tell you a very small part of the story.

I was just going to comment on that. Having that set, I find it a little trickey to use them, figuring out what it is you want to do with them. They can be a bit of a learning curve with new players. 

 

I also have to wonder how any rule changes will affect the Masons. When we did the open testing of the formations I found them very helpful to Granite. Put her on the front line, let loose with Tar Pit and you've clogged up the middle of the board. 

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So I've not tried Granite as of yet but I am put off by her low speed stat. But I do intend to keep trying her in casual games to see if I can find a niche for her.

Chisel. In my eyes just reduce her playbook length so she can get some tasty wrap action. She's fragile yes but at the moment Mallet seems to do her job better.

Other than that I prefer Marbles over Wrecker so haven't given the armadillo a try yet.

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1 hour ago, Scapegoat_Stephen said:

So I've not tried Granite as of yet but I am put off by her low speed stat. But I do intend to keep trying her in casual games to see if I can find a niche for her.

Chisel. In my eyes just reduce her playbook length so she can get some tasty wrap action. She's fragile yes but at the moment Mallet seems to do her job better.

Other than that I prefer Marbles over Wrecker so haven't given the armadillo a try yet.

I guess that’s how most people feel. 

Wrecker is good, but marbles with Brick is better. Chisel sounds exciting, but Mallet is reliable. And Granite is to slow. 

 

If if you have can get a friendly fight against Tresher try Granite as a tar pit against him. Placed right she should prevent him from reaching your more squishy models. 

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11 minutes ago, Jotnebane said:

I guess that’s how most people feel. 

Wrecker is good, but marbles with Brick is better. Chisel sounds exciting, but Mallet is reliable. And Granite is to slow. 

 

If if you have can get a friendly fight against Tresher try Granite as a tar pit against him. Placed right she should prevent him from reaching your more squishy models. 

Definitely will consider it as I'm telling local Farmers to play Thresher so I can play into him. Sadly they both don't want to be that guy.

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My problem with granite is that a football team will just ignore her (or worse.. bounce on her), a control team will just lure / pupet master / ... her out of position, and a beating team will just kill her and generate a lot of mom doing so. Once she is dead, if you don't play in your half, she is useless for the rest of the game.

She is slow, mz1 and her counter attack is not really good. Her pb when shi is active is nice enough though and her kick stat is good, but that just means that she wants and needs influence (to hit and get where she needs to) in a team, filled with super solos and better field players, that doesnt want to give her any.

 

 

As for poor chisel (one of the model that got me into masons), as stated by many other people here, her pb is just plain bad. Seeing the rookie version, I hope they rework her into a winger / striker brisket 1 style (with hammer / tower we can't have the monster beater she was supposed to be I guess).

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Ironically enough, Granite and Chisel are my two favorite masons as they are.

Granite is a straight up tarpit, and there are tricks to get her up the field faster. if you kick off with her, she gets her free jog as well, so that puts her 6" up the field. Veteran Harmony can trigger Between a Rock a lot easier due to Team Player, and even lets Granite get in a counter attack vs 2" melee models if they damage her. With all the pushes available to Masons, you can easily use the captains, Tower or Wrecker to shove models into Granites sphere of influence. And even if they try and  stay away, that's a 6" bubble in the middle of the field that you control, and any control elements she sucks up is less that's affecting the rest of your team.

Chisel has been a favorite of mine for a while (some of you may remember my enamor with her previously) and she's still a great compliment piece to the masons. For me, she's a ball retrieval player. No-one else on the masons team can get the ball back like Chisel can. Her 2" melee, low tackle, and dodges means she can get in to most ball holders and snag the ball back. Brisket or flint have the Ball? Chisel doesn't care for their Charmed. Someone have unpredictable move? 2" melee. Her crazy is to let her get a high enough TAC to reliably grab the ball from models, even if she's crowded out. And herPain tolerance is to let her get a higher tac if she's hurt without having to crazy. She's got really strong self heal abilities between Sadism when she injures people (momentous damage and a dodge), and if you need her to stay stuck in, she can Feel My Pain to make removing her just frustrating. In a pinch she can do damage, but in my eyes, that's not her main purpose.

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14 minutes ago, Devilsquid said:

Chisel has been a favorite of mine for a while (some of you may remember my enamor with her previously) and she's still a great compliment piece to the masons. For me, she's a ball retrieval player. No-one else on the masons team can get the ball back like Chisel can. Her 2" melee, low tackle, and dodges means she can get in to most ball holders and snag the ball back. Brisket or flint have the Ball? Chisel doesn't care for their Charmed. Someone have unpredictable move? 2" melee. Her crazy is to let her get a high enough TAC to reliably grab the ball from models, even if she's crowded out. And herPain tolerance is to let her get a higher tac if she's hurt without having to crazy. She's got really strong self heal abilities between Sadism when she injures people (momentous damage and a dodge), and if you need her to stay stuck in, she can Feel My Pain to make removing her just frustrating. In a pinch she can do damage, but in my eyes, that's not her main purpose.

Good points on Chisel, but until the minor guild is released, I think Mist does all that and scores goals without dying as easily.

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6 hours ago, Devilsquid said:

Chisel has been a favorite of mine for a while (some of you may remember my enamor with her previously) and she's still a great compliment piece to the masons. For me, she's a ball retrieval player. No-one else on the masons team can get the ball back like Chisel can. Her 2" melee, low tackle, and dodges means she can get in to most ball holders and snag the ball back. Brisket or flint have the Ball? Chisel doesn't care for their Charmed. Someone have unpredictable move? 2" melee. Her crazy is to let her get a high enough TAC to reliably grab the ball from models, even if she's crowded out. And herPain tolerance is to let her get a higher tac if she's hurt without having to crazy. She's got really strong self heal abilities between Sadism when she injures people (momentous damage and a dodge), and if you need her to stay stuck in, she can Feel My Pain to make removing her just frustrating. In a pinch she can do damage, but in my eyes, that's not her main purpose.

Interesting take on chisel. I'll try her again thinking on those good points.

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