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WhiteYin

Falling into a trap

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Want to start off by saying I'm loving the Smiths, they are my primary team now (considering I paid a bit to get early etc) so this is more a re-forging of this love but needing advice.

I'm falling into the trap of using Ferrite (Captain), Hearth, Farris, Iron, Alloy and Bolt, pretty excludively in my games. I've played about a bit (more so in the past), swapping Farris and Bolt for Burnish and Cast in mirror match up or Cinder over Iron (well only recently)

But I feel I'm simply playing the same strategy over and over and over again but seems to me (and most of my local meta that I speak to) is the strongest way to use them.

Surely Smiths aren't a one trick pony? (even if we are the only guild with a horsewoman) what can I do to stop feeling like folk know what I'm going to take when my name is called?

Oh and of course what guild would you use this other list against? You get special internet brownie points if you can somehow include Anvil and Sledge (miss those guys from the 1 box only days :D)

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I think it would really be changing up who you bring. For example: while I never really liked Furnace that much, I've grown to appreciate him a lot more recently. Last game I played I used box 1 (2nd box hadnt arrived at the store yet :c ). I hadn't played in a while too, so I got my ass handed to me and made quite a few mistakes. But, Furnace did secure a goal by taking the ball off of Jackstraw. Even though the scarecrow has a tackle on one, Furnace's legendary gave him 3/3, negating the 3 tac from Jack. I laughed. The 2 inch reach kept him safe from Fallow? Farrow? (pitchfork support that isnt tater), who was guarding the goal.

I think BS shine in the ability to play 2-2 or 3-0, easily and flexibly. While you have to decide who is going to do what at the beginning of your turn during allocation, and thus telegraph just a bit, you can still usually change it up on the fly, right? Iron is a great example. He's deceptively speedy af, but he also access to some stupid damage results. If you load him up with 4, he can be your flex activation at the end of the turn, or whenever you see an opening. This is where box 2 becomes awesome because now we have access batteries like Hearth and Farris, who both only really need 1 or 2 inf at the most, right?

Unfortunately for Anvil and Sledge, they're just not worth taking unless you're really committed to an all takeout game, I think. For me, this is because my usual answer to something like a Vet Rage or butchers is to just score faster than they can kill. Smiths are tough and can definately get kills (SLEDGE PAIN TRAIN WOOP WOOP), but it requires so much more setup, mental energy, and influence than just scoring some goals lol. With box 2, this is especially true, as we now have Allow, who is a god, Cast, who doesn't care where you hide the ball, and Hearth, who gives Cinder a ranged tackle on 1 (barring close control).

BS have a ton of great tools to play the 3-0 game. Unlike my masons, how they do it can also really change, which is why I love them. Furnace can deliver some seriously surprising goal runs and be very, very safe while doing so (legendary for def 3, arm 3 and his free One at a Time, Lads!). I think he'll be my go-to captain from now on just for the +2 inf buff.

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I honestly think when Pass the Mantle comes out it might solve a few issues. Ferrite can be captain turn 1 and get the goal (as I like to do :D) and now that her team Legendary has popped I can change over and get another benefit to fit a different playstyle etc.

I used Furnace a lot but I just found Footballing for a 3 goal win easier (WELL, depending how well your opponent can handle it I guess)

Perhaps I've just "forgotten" how well Smiths can fight, even if it is more brain burner they CAN do it. BUt I think my biggest issue is "Who do you fight and who do you football?" As my local meta answers that, you out-football everyone bar fish.

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I'm only just rejoining my local meta, and it seems we've dropped the love for GICs and alt-deployment. :( So using Pass the Mantle seems to be out of my reach for now, until it becomes official.

Turn 1 Ferrite goal is also a huge thing on my radar. I should mention that I am absolutely all about the 3-0. Even with my Masons, I almost solely focus on the 3-0 lol. While they are known for being flexible, I think BS have an even easier time and more tools at their disposal.

I love how SFG really did a big psychological trick on folks when releasing the farmers and smiths. They seem to be counterintuitive; you dont expect farmers to be the beater team, and you definitely don't expect the smiths to be the footballing team. If you're not aware of where they are centered, its easy to get caught up by their aesthetics and our preconceptions. At the same time, as we see, both teams can happily do both things, so that is nice too.

When to do which, I think, comes down to you as the player / coach. Its about understanding your resources, your plan, and what your opponent can do. I think playing the 3-0 game is really a lot of "How can I make this goal happen?" every activation and is more reactive, where going for the TO is "How can I get that player dead?" which requires a lot of proactive actions that are more prone to failing. Then again, both of those statements are more over simplifications than not lol.

To answer simply: have a plan and figure out how to make that happen on an activation-by-activation basis. Understand the big idea of each team, then tackle it (heh) piece by piece rather than trying to make sure it happens to the letter no matter what (Also useful advice in real life).

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16 hours ago, WhiteYin said:

I'm falling into the trap of using Ferrite (Captain), Hearth, Farris, Iron, Alloy and Bolt, pretty excludively in my games. I've played about a bit (more so in the past), swapping Farris and Bolt for Burnish and Cast in mirror match up or Cinder over Iron (well only recently)

But I feel I'm simply playing the same strategy over and over and over again but seems to me (and most of my local meta that I speak to) is the strongest way to use them.

Try a couple of games without captain Ferrite and see all the options open up before you :) At least it worked for me...

Probably most of the smiths players will find their own basic 6 with whom they feel the most confident but try to stay opened to your own ideas.

I started writing down my and opponent teams every game and make new combos that I think should work better. I am very happy with the progression of my team's builds and their performances due to this and the lists versus Masons or Smoke alchemists are completely different.

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You could run the  (burinsh (captain), furnace,  hearth, alloy,  cinder, iron) line, that I've been havin' tons of fun with. Hearth can also captain the ship, to set up the apprentices, but we all know burning is better.

Basic plays:

-tool up burnish and set people on fire. If you can hit 3, use your legendary.

-Kill the ball with a hearth powered cinder, at range.

- threaten goal and takeouts with alloy. And to a lesser extent iron.

-Use iron's battering ram to push your team up or away

-laugh manically as you set fire to groups of people.

image.jpg

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14 minutes ago, LowBall said:

You could run the  (burinsh (captain), furnace,  hearth, alloy,  cinder, iron) line, that I've been havin' tons of fun with. Hearth can also captain the ship, to set up the apprentices, but we all know burning is better.

Basic plays:

-tool up burnish and set people on fire. If you can hit 3, use your legendary.

-Kill the ball with a hearth powered cinder, at range.

- threaten goal and takeouts with alloy. And to a lesser extent iron.

-Use iron's battering ram to push your team up or away

-laugh manically as you set fire to groups of people.

image.jpg

Wow, nice tips, i will try this next time! :D with the maniac laugh too, of course :D

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I would nearly always recommend people to try and break away from a comfort 6 in which you can get so used to using you get to a point where you don't feel brave enough to play anything else as the 6 your so comfortable are hard to break away from. 

It really does a lot for your game, for a long time I never took a look at players like Ulfr, or Seenah because I was so comfortable in my usual 6 I never felt the need to. I then decided if I'm going to value a player I at least need to play  them and now once a week at least I'll throw a 6 together that I've never used (though at this point I've used nearly all the combinations). It really allows for your self to gain a gauge on those players that the internet calls bad and it can reveal some hidden gems in players that might really click with your play style. 

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52 minutes ago, warder808 said:

Are there any good turn 1 plans, set ups?

I think so, yeah. The best one I've learned so far is actually to choose to kick and use Alloy to do it.

Keep him within 6" of Hearth from the line, and then choose a spot where it will be extremely difficult for your enemy to retrieve the ball. The idea is to either have it yourself without contest or to give him an easy target. Activating near hearth will allow him to take 2" melee and thus make it easier to bounce off someone. I was able to use this tactic to get a first activation goal.

Then, you pick a second apprentice to stack up on. For me I allocated Cinder 4inf so that she could tackle the ball (with instruction) and get it back to me if Alloy couldn't do it, or they left a target in range. Unfortunately my opponent was prepared and kept Jackstraw on the goal instead of on the line, so I wasn't able to get the ball back until later.

So, after your Primary scorer and Plan B, allocate so that everyone can position themselves for next turn. But also make sure not to over allocate. If I hadn't given Cinder 4, I could have used Quickfoot from Farris to get Bolt to perform a second goal turn 1. Alas, I was just one influence off haha. So instead I had him shoemarang Grange and set up the pair for a turn 2 goal (whicj they got). Cinder and Furnace were able to secure my final goal.

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I do tend to try the "risky" Ferrite 1st activation goal myself, found it can even work if Fangtooth if the bounce off point. Alloy CAN do this as well but mostly I use Ferrite.

Likely known but I'll put it here since it was asked

-Recieve the ball

-Watch who/where the opponent chooses to kick and place Ferrite pretty much in front of him. Have the likes of Alloy and bolt (or your best other ball collectors if not present) on flanks should this fail or needs to be second activation.

-Opponent kicks the ball fairly stright or unluckily ends up basically within snap in range of Ferrite's charge lane to the kicker.

-Pop legendary (Not always needed but 9/10 times I've had to), Acrobatic (again only if need be), Charge kicker and take as much as you can to his goal.

-Take MOM dodges to get into range, can even attack again to get a second MOM result (distance or whatever if not needed anymore) Ultimately you want to be in within goal distance, ideally outwith melee and with 2 MOM.

-Bonus time goal kick (just take the bonus time, no point throwing Ferrite out this far and fluffing the thing, could still happen but at least you tried to mitigate)

-Use the MOM to get out of dodge or even more ideally Knee slider the bajesus out of there.

This way you can't get countered (some models provided) and a fairly guaranteed goal and INF next turn. AND because this is the first thing you have done, you now have a team with Tong and Cheek and all of them to activate. If you lose Ferrite as you couldn't get her back, you are at the very least 2 up.

If however you don;t get the ideal ball placement, if you can get it to Ferrite ASAP you could still do this as likely the game state hasn't changed too much (like second activation) just hope the ball kicker doesn't leg it away or gets blocked/backed-up.

Note most top players won't let this happen :D

 

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Played the following lineup last week:

Anvil (Captain), Sledge, Alloy, Hearth, Farris, Bolt into, sBrisket, Mist, Gutter, Minx, coin and Snakeskin.

I kicked with Alloy, sledge and Anvil in centre of field Hearth nearby, farris and bolt on left wing, alloy on right. He collected the ball and passed it around a bit leaving it on brisket thinking he was safe their for turn 2. I used SWTIIH to dodge everyone 2" forwards, Alloy took the 2inch melee, charged in tackle, damage, shoot score back to the shadows in threat range of ball and goal, quit footed bolt was yet to go. He went last and kd'd gutter with shoemarang and sat mid field left while alloy was midfield right. Both pressuring the entire field. Due to the pressure on the ball, my opponent went first with sBrisket and took the ball from mist, legendaried to where gutter was and realised too late that trying to whack Farris within cover was a mistake. I countered and tackled and he quit the game there. Basically he could not get the ball and Sledge was just going to saunter over and lay into the KD gutter then goal with alloy and goal with bolt likely for the finish.

I thin this is my favorite line up atm, little bit hitty, lots scorey.

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34 minutes ago, masterkdog said:

Played the following lineup last week:

Anvil (Captain), Sledge, Alloy, Hearth, Farris, Bolt into, sBrisket, Mist, Gutter, Minx, coin and Snakeskin.

I kicked with Alloy, sledge and Anvil in centre of field Hearth nearby, farris and bolt on left wing, alloy on right. He collected the ball and passed it around a bit leaving it on brisket thinking he was safe their for turn 2. I used SWTIIH to dodge everyone 2" forwards, Alloy took the 2inch melee, charged in tackle, damage, shoot score back to the shadows in threat range of ball and goal, quit footed bolt was yet to go. He went last and kd'd gutter with shoemarang and sat mid field left while alloy was midfield right. Both pressuring the entire field. Due to the pressure on the ball, my opponent went first with sBrisket and took the ball from mist, legendaried to where gutter was and realised too late that trying to whack Farris within cover was a mistake. I countered and tackled and he quit the game there. Basically he could not get the ball and Sledge was just going to saunter over and lay into the KD gutter then goal with alloy and goal with bolt likely for the finish.

I thin this is my favorite line up atm, little bit hitty, lots scorey.

Ultimately what did you think of Captain Anvil? haven't done that since my very first blacksmith game.

.....Also for the past 2 tournaments I completely forgot Alloy had back to the shadows :D d'oh!

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Well I got one turn with him so not able to judge to much. Fells like a decent pick over the other two as he and Sledge are the main rock in the middle I guess. Hearth works well sitting in between sledge and Alloy as she can give benefits to either of them, but never really considered using her or Farris as captains. My other go to cap is burnish.

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17 hours ago, WhiteYin said:

Ultimately what did you think of Captain Anvil? haven't done that since my very first blacksmith game.

.....Also for the past 2 tournaments I completely forgot Alloy had back to the shadows :D d'oh!

i'd say he's definitley not a versatile choice as he's not doing much that he couldn't do with a cap of 3 inf, it is fun to run him in and set up 2 targets with KD and SO for Alloy and Sledge to tear into. i've taken him mostly for the tough hide bubble when fighting butchers and farmers. not having much luck out-scrumming farmers yet but still a lot of fun.

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I mentioned this on the dreaded Book of Face. Sledge is NOT a beater - he's awful at it. Too much setup for little payoff and Iron and Cast do it much better. Instead the magic of Sledge and Anvil is GOAL SCORING. Say whaaaat girlfriend? Sledge has a T on 1. If he starts within 6" of ANVIL he can make sure he auto gets a T and because Knockback is on any success not just DMG, push the other away so they can't tackle back (only Hearth Legendary can stop this in the game!). Then he can score, or if he has the INF, Long Bomb to a snap shotter. This is Sledge's power I think, not hitting people with his feeble 3 INF.

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16 hours ago, EpicChris said:

I mentioned this on the dreaded Book of Face. Sledge is NOT a beater - he's awful at it. Too much setup for little payoff and Iron and Cast do it much better. Instead the magic of Sledge and Anvil is GOAL SCORING. Say whaaaat girlfriend? Sledge has a T on 1. If he starts within 6" of ANVIL he can make sure he auto gets a T and because Knockback is on any success not just DMG, push the other away so they can't tackle back (only Hearth Legendary can stop this in the game!). Then he can score, or if he has the INF, Long Bomb to a snap shotter. This is Sledge's power I think, not hitting people with his feeble 3 INF.

Keep hearing this but yet to try it :D

I do think though against the right person he can be a beater or a first wave one. I mean Tater takes the 7DMG plus wrap into Piledriver quite well with just KD and Singled Out from Anvil (dice permitting but managed to do it twice now reasonably comfertable)

I played a "proper" melee list against farmers recently saying I wouldn't use Ferite as my captain. Went "eehhh" to be honest and just a big scrum in the middle. Only redeeming factor was the 2 push outs to 1 push out trade we got ourselves into (probably the first and last that will ever happen).

But still enjoying Blacksmiths and good to see that stepping out of your comfort zone with them isn't too much of a lost cause (I never thought it THAT bad but can't really think of a way to put it :D)

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I don't think Slegde is a bad apprentice but he competes with some insane models. Alloy, Bolt & Cinder are all amazing models and perform there roles so well. Iron is worth a honourable mention as that guy puts some serious damage and Cast is a nice little flex pick. I find it hard to justify Sledge as he doesn't bring anything unique to the table. 

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