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Ragnar Rok

How to Avarisse & Greede

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Hey, I just got Avarisse and Greede, I'm using them with my FIsh right now, and am having trouble wrapping my head around them.  I played them into Farmers, and they generated probaby 5 MoM or more per turn. 

Any articles, or helpful tips on how to best utilize this pair of near do wellers?

Do you spit them up, then ups them at the end of the turn? 

How do you allocate for them? 

Are they an early round activation or late round? 

If they die is it the end of the world, (Greede died twice)?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

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If Avarisse dies with Greede on him, Greede is not taken out. So it is not the end of the world. If Greede is taken out by himself, it's usually bad, because he gives up 2 VP, and he's unlikely to ever catch up to join up with Avarisse again, and the two of them do work best together. So, I recommend not leaving Greede on the pitch if you can help it.

Like all beaters, when they activate is dependant on game state. They need to be within 8" of a target, preferably one that doesn't have access to easy dodges. If they are within 5" they will reliably convert 5 Influence into 4 Momentum, as well as 6-9 damage + a Knockdown. Those numbers go up the lower the defense of their target is. Against a 4/1 model the activation goes like this:

Greede 2, Avarisse 3
Walk up, Drop Me Off!.
Greede buys an attack 4 dice, 1 net hit: Momentous Singled Out
Avarisse buys an attack 5+2 (Singled Out) +1(Crowd Out) dice, 3 net hit: Momentous 2 (+1 + KD from Thuggery)
Avarisse buys an attack 8 dice, 4 net hit: Momentous 3 (+1 from Thuggery)
Avarisse buys an attack 8 dice, 4 net hit: Momentous 3 (+1 from Thuggery)
Greede uses Pick Me Up!

Net Result: 4 Momentum, 11 damage, Knocked Down, Singled Out player engaged by Avarisse. If Avarisse starts wrapping (easy on 3 and 2 defense players) those numbers go up very quickly.

That's enough damage to kill a player that's already taken some damage, or set up that player to be taken out next activation. 

The thing to keep in mind, is that they're pretty slow, so if your opponent can stay out of their threat bubble. One of the things that makes them such excellent beaters though, is that they rarely have to worry about counter attacks. If you push Greede, he can just walk back in. If you save your counter attack for Avarisse, he has a KD on every column, and a double KD on 4.

As Fish, you have the best tools to get A&G into the fight, between Fisher's Lure, Drag and Tidal Surge.

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1 hour ago, Merry Wanderer said:

If Avarisse dies with Greede on him, Greede is not taken out. So it is not the end of the world. If Greede is taken out by himself, it's usually bad, because he gives up 2 VP, and he's unlikely to ever catch up to join up with Avarisse again, and the two of them do work best together. So, I recommend not leaving Greede on the pitch if you can help it.

Like all beaters, when they activate is dependant on game state. They need to be within 8" of a target, preferably one that doesn't have access to easy dodges. If they are within 5" they will reliably convert 5 Influence into 4 Momentum, as well as 6-9 damage + a Knockdown. Those numbers go up the lower the defense of their target is. Against a 4/1 model the activation goes like this:

Greede 2, Avarisse 3
Walk up, Drop Me Off!.
Greede buys an attack 4 dice, 1 net hit: Momentous Singled Out
Avarisse buys an attack 5+2 (Singled Out) +1(Crowd Out) dice, 3 net hit: Momentous 2 (+1 + KD from Thuggery)
Avarisse buys an attack 8 dice, 4 net hit: Momentous 3 (+1 from Thuggery)
Avarisse buys an attack 8 dice, 4 net hit: Momentous 3 (+1 from Thuggery)
Greede uses Pick Me Up!

Net Result: 4 Momentum, 11 damage, Knocked Down, Singled Out player engaged by Avarisse. If Avarisse starts wrapping (easy on 3 and 2 defense players) those numbers go up very quickly.

That's enough damage to kill a player that's already taken some damage, or set up that player to be taken out next activation. 

The thing to keep in mind, is that they're pretty slow, so if your opponent can stay out of their threat bubble. One of the things that makes them such excellent beaters though, is that they rarely have to worry about counter attacks. If you push Greede, he can just walk back in. If you save your counter attack for Avarisse, he has a KD on every column, and a double KD on 4.

As Fish, you have the best tools to get A&G into the fight, between Fisher's Lure, Drag and Tidal Surge.

Well writtten, nicely done.

I can see them becoming even more valuable once you score that first Fish Goal w/Shark gaining that extra INF.  I think Hag could be their friend as well, since she brings 2, but rarely needs any. 

Thank you again.

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Hag can also extend A&G's threat range with Fisher's Reel and her Legendary.

If the opponent has early dodges or pushes you might want to attack first with Avarisse to get the KD and then go for the Singled Out play with Greede.

Corsair with a friend(usually Tentacles) is great at setting up A&G as he can pre-KD an opponent's model (so you can attack with Greede first to get the Singled Out), push them into a better position/angle for A&G to approach and soften the target up a bit while offering a gang up to facilitate the wraps. With two gang ups (Let's say Corsair + Tentacles), you'll be wrapping on a KD'ed 4/1 55% of the time (70% if you bonus time or get an extra gang up).

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So, I've been pondering how to put Avarisse & Greede into use when I (eventually) start playing my Union team, but they seem very risky to do anything unusual with, leaving a small set of safe activation options. When  I read the following, all I could think of was, what if they have <, <<>>>, or KD? @Merry Wanderer's great analysis inspired me to break it down a bit, numbers-wise, to see what's lost and gained by factoring in counter-attacks.

On 2/13/2018 at 2:37 AM, Ragnar Rok said:

Against a 4/1 model the activation goes like this:

Greede 2, Avarisse 3
Walk up, Drop Me Off!.
Greede buys an attack 4 dice, 1 net hit: Momentous Singled Out
Avarisse buys an attack 5+2 (Singled Out) +1(Crowd Out) dice, 3 net hit: Momentous 2 (+1 + KD from Thuggery)
Avarisse buys an attack 8 dice, 4 net hit: Momentous 3 (+1 from Thuggery)
Avarisse buys an attack 8 dice, 4 net hit: Momentous 3 (+1 from Thuggery)
Greede uses Pick Me Up!

With a < counter-attack, Greede's attack would let the target dodge out of Avarisse's melee zone unless he was base-to-base, which is tricky with only a 5" jog. So a < counter-attack may make Avarisse's attacks useless.

Worse, with a << counter-attack, Greede's attack would let the target dodge completely out of melee range and make the engagement a waste of time (other than applying Singled Out for others to take advantage of. Greede could follow up with his jog, but that's not of much value.

> counter-attack is not a big deal, and a >> counter-attack is not a problem for Greede, but is a problem for Avarisse, who would then be out of the fight.

KD counter-attack, at least, isn't such a big deal against Greede, since he still has his standard movement he can forfeit to stand up. But an opponent who can counter-attack Greede with a KD can then do the same to Avarisse on his first attack, forcing him to use Rest to be of any further use (though using the momentum from Greede's momentous GB at least).

Another consideration is that Greede may just miss with his modest 4 TAC.

 

Ignoring rarer cases, like figures with Resilience or Stoic or such, with all of those considerations in mind (and assuming I've not made any mistakes or missed something vital) a < or > threat for counter-attack is acceptable, damage is acceptable, a KD is just a drain of 1 momentum, but a << or >> pretty much nullifies Avarisse & Greede's beat-down, leaving a Charge as the only safe way to engage one of the many figures with a << or >> early in their playbooks, for a much lower return on the INF investment, but a very low-risk attack. Such a charge would look something like:

For 2 INF, Avarisse declares a charge and advances to within 1" of his target.

Avarisse uses Drop Off [Greede] to place Greede within 1" of the target model (ideally in base-to-base contact?)

Avarisse then makes his charge attack roll for 5+4+1 = 10 (or 11 with Bonus Time) dice, almost guaranteeing a momentous 2+1 or momentous 3+1, and likely getting a wrap-around momentous 1+1, all with a KD.

Then, with the target safely knocked down, unable to counter-attack, and easier to hit, Greede sinks the boot in with a 1 INF standard attack (with Bonus Time against a very high DEF target maybe, just to be sure) against the knocked-down target, pretty much guaranteeing a safe Singled Out.

With his last INF, Avarisse would make a standard attack for 5+2+1 = 8 (or 9 with Bonus Time) dice, with good odds of getting the same damage numbers as his charge dealt.

Greede would then use his last 1 INF to use Pick Up [Avarisse] and their damage-dealing is done.

 

The damage output is lower, but very, very safe. With a virtually guaranteed knock-down, the target model will end up with:

Knocked Down

Singled Out

A bare minimum of 6 damage, likely 8, potentially 10 or 12

Giving away anywhere from 1 to 5 momentum depending on momentum spent for Bonus Times.

 

Overall, the output is reduced, but it's very reliable, and I think the only reliable way for Avarisse & Greede to deal with a model with early << or >> counter-attacks is for Avarisse to attack first for the KD whether it's with a simple jog-attack or a charge.

 

Any comments, criticisms, or corrections are welcome. In fact, any useful comment is welcome, as it's a bit quiet here on the Guild Ball forums. :)

 

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1 hour ago, Benesato said:

For 2 INF, Avarisse declares a charge and advances to within 1" of his target.

Avarisse uses Drop Off [Greede] to place Greede within 1" of the target model (ideally in base-to-base contact?)

Avarisse then makes his charge attack roll for 5+4+1 = 10 (or 11 with Bonus Time) dice, almost guaranteeing a momentous 2+1 or momentous 3+1, and likely getting a wrap-around momentous 1+1, all with a KD.

I don't think that this works, as Drop Off is an action, and it can't interrupt the Charge. You can drop Greede off before declaring the Charge or after the Charge has been completely resolved.

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9 minutes ago, 6tus said:

I don't think that this works, as Drop Off is an action, and it can't interrupt the Charge.

Ahh, yes. This makes sense. Thanks for pointing this out. I don't know why I sometimes miss the obvious. :)

I'll have to come back and revise this, then, to work out whether a charge is even worth it.

 

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I usually just think about it like this.

If the counter has a double reposition (or single and A is not basing), I have to go with Avarisse first.
If Sturdy, do something else.

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I've been having an absolute ball with them in Alchemists. Play a defensive game, force the other team to advance to you through a hell of fire and poison, then walk up with A&G to anyone who gets close and turn them into a fine red mist. A knocked down, poisoned model makes Venin a very happy boy, and Mercury can get a lot of mileage off of his :momGB: results. 

As for OOA, I almost always punch with Avarisse first to land the knockdown. You lose a sliver of damage potential, but blanking the counter is usually always worth it. Heresy, I know, but sometimes I don't even bother going for singled out. 

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A&G are a much better merc than they are a player on an actual Union team.  They pack more damage into a single model than anyone in a lot of guilds but they aren't as efficient as most Union players and when your entire team can productively turn influence into momentous damage the ability to make 3 swings with 4 or 5 influence, even if they're quality swings, isn't as appealing.  That's to say nothing of Avarrisse's improved but still slow movement values in a team full of fast hybrid strickers/fighters.

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11 hours ago, TheBriarfox said:

Heresy, I know, but sometimes I don't even bother going for singled out. 

Other than his :momT: (and thanks for using that icon: I had no idea they were available for use in the forums!), Greede offers pretty modest value to use his INF on in an attack, so do you just save the INF for someone else?

But if you can put Singled Out then you're guaranteed to get a couple of uses out of it from Avarisse. Even if it's a late (or last) activation, the extra +2 TAC on 2 attacks from Avarisse have a very good chance of amounting to a wrap-around, for a :mom2: or with very good luck, a total :mom4: extra, which is a very solid use of INF. So, is there something I'm missing (I seem to always miss something unfortunately), do you prefer to just attack with Greede for his reasonable non-momentous damage numbers, or do you just much prefer putting INF elsewhere? Let me into your mind!

1 hour ago, MechMage said:

A&G are a much better merc than they are a player on an actual Union team.

I kind of had that feeling, so I'm glad to hear it confirmed.

 

This all leads to another question: Can Greede successfully be used as a 7th model (essentially a 2nd mascot with 2 VPs) and a presence on the field, rather than simply as a one-trick pony to boost Avarisse? A second Singled Out, a second body in the scrum for Crowding Out bonus, a glorified mascot with modest but useful damage options, good defence, and reasoning footballing abilities to :momT: and keep the ball with a 2nd column :DD: for counter-attacks (with 6 TAC against any Singled Out models).

At this stage, I'm guessing playing Greede as an on-the-field model is probably up there in the If you're good enough, it can work, but not at a competitive level kind of ideas. But I'd love to hear of any successes or failures from players who have tried (or played against it) first hand.

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Greede is slow, fragile and doesn't do much on his own.  He's mostly a liability that is justified because of how much he empowers Avarisse.  In previous seasons he had an accurate kick and WTG so he could operate on his own for short periods of time but that was deliberately removed.

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11 hours ago, Benesato said:

Other than his :momT: (and thanks for using that icon: I had no idea they were available for use in the forums!), Greede offers pretty modest value to use his INF on in an attack, so do you just save the INF for someone else?

 

This all leads to another question: Can Greede successfully be used as a 7th model (essentially a 2nd mascot with 2 VPs) and a presence on the field, rather than simply as a one-trick pony to boost Avarisse?

I usually just leave a single INF on Greede to get picked up, and plop him down for the +:1: and +:KD: and the crowd out. I can see where the Singled Out math works out, but usually that's just overkill, and the extra couple of damage isn't going to matter. It's a model by model call, but most of the time 3 swings from Avarasse should suffice. In Alchs, for example, we usually only have 13 or so influence. Putting a full 5 on A&G is a HUGE investment, especially since Smoke almost always wants 4-6 as well and we have a lot of ambient damage happening too. So anything you can do to save a buck here and there is usually the right choice. 

As for the second question? I think the answer is pretty decidedly no. Greede is very fragile and offers little anymore except as support for Avarasse. He's a huge liability on the field too. 2VPs is a lot to give up for a model that is all but guaranteed to not be relevant the entire rest of the game if it happens, since it'll take him the rest of the game to get back to Avarasse (who is decidedly lesser without his little buddy around).  

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