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We've seen a few discussions about how to resolve the interaction between Second Wind and Cloak of Rats.

Situation: Scalpel has previous given Pelage Second Wind and Pelage's activation ends. In what order are Cloak of Rats and Second Wind resolved?

 

Ruling: Both Second Wind and Cloak of Rats trigger at the end of an activation (the beginning of step 3 of the activation sequence).

As they both occur at the same timing step they may be resolved in any order the Controlling Player chooses.

However, the Enemy models in the Cloak of Rats's aura at the time the Trait is triggered are the ones who will be affected.

The Controlling Player is able to resolve the Second Wind Jog first, but when Cloak of Rats is resolved it would be from where Pelage was originally positioned.

In this situation you should measure the 2" aura to see which models will be affected, move Pelage, then resolve the Cloak of Rats.

In most cases we would suggest resolving the Cloak of Rats first, but in some cases you may not want to

e.g. if a model with Overheat or Noxious Death was in the 2" aura and taking 3 damage would cause them to suffer the taken-out condition, you could Jog Pelage away and then resolve Cloak of Rats to avoid Pelage taking the resulting damage.

Conversely, should an enemy model engaging Pelage suffer the taken-out condition due to Cloak of Rats damage first, Pelage could Jog away using Second Wind without suffering a parting blow.

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Misread this one as a question, sorry...

But does this then also apply for Grim caress and second wind? E.g. an enemy Scalpel puts second wind on herself, engages Pelage and then runs away from Pelage at the end of the activation, would she get a parting blow and 3 Dmg from Grim Caress?

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1 hour ago, LongFoot said:

But does this then also apply for Grim caress and second wind? E.g. an enemy Scalpel puts second wind on herself, engages Pelage and then runs away from Pelage at the end of the activation, would she get a parting blow and 3 Dmg from Grim Caress?

Yes, yes she would.

 

What's important is the position of the models at the moment of the trigger; in your example Scalpel is within Pelage's Grim Caress when the "end of activation" trigger happens.

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How does this ruling fit this one?

In the above example, two things are triggered from one attack. They are resolved in the game state that exists when they are resolved, not the one when they are triggered.

According to the ruling in this thread here, you shouldn't bei able to resolve Chain Grab first to get an additional model into your Scything Blow.

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The two effects are selected as part of the same attack, but they aren't "triggered" in the same sense.  In the case of attacks, the player selects playbook results, consolidates DMG and Pushes, and then resolves each in their own turn.

 

That's different from the case here, where a trigger results in the effects.

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Yes, my wording on that ruling was fuzzy. I should have been saying when triggered, not when resolved. I apologise and have tweaked the wording of that ruling, but the outcome remains the same.

A character play result has one effect, it triggers a character play. This effect is triggered (but not yet resolved) when the attack results are selected. The play, and its effects, are not triggered until the attack result is resolved. The measurements for the character play are made at the point of the trigger.

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8 hours ago, Henry said:

A character play result has one effect, it triggers a character play. This effect is triggered (but not yet resolved) when the attack results are selected. The play, and its effects, are not triggered until the attack result is resolved. The measurements for the character play are made at the point of the trigger.

Just so I'm absolutely sure on what you mean.

 

triggered = you determine who/what is affected (range, LOS, etc.), but you don't affect them yet.

resolved = you resolve the effect according to the state when it was triggered

So in the example with Chain Grab and Scything Blow, if I wrap to both Chain Grab and Scything Blow in an attack, my selecting the results triggers both plays, so at that time I check who can be affected by Chain Grab (range, LOS) and I also check who will be affected by Scything Blow (who is currently in my melee range). Then I resolve e.g. Chain Grab first and pull someone in and then I resolve the Scything Blow but the newly pulled in model is not affected by it, as it was not in range when the effect was triggered. Correct?
But the Chain Grabbed target would e.g. be affected by the damage from "Overheat" if my Scything Blow kills someone like Flask, because at that time it is already pulled in, correct?

If the attack result was Push+Chain Grab I would NOT be able to push my target first to get LOS to someone I want to Chain Grab, correct?
If it were a Dodge instead of a Push, I would NOT be able to dodge to get a target for Chain Grab into LOS or range, correct?

If the attack result was Dodge+Scything Blow, I would NOT be able to dodge first to get someone new into my Scything Blow, correct?

That is my understanding from your above posts.

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This might be a stupid question, but why is Cloak of Rats an aura and not a pulse? It would be much simpler, if it was a pulse. Now, if Cloak of Rats is resolved before Second Wind, all the models in the aura should be affected with the Damage or Snare during the movement too.

image.png.90a51dcfb198d2948fee92a9a3d8c35e.png

From rulebook.

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3 hours ago, Mootaz said:

Just so I'm absolutely sure on what you mean.

 

triggered = you determine who/what is affected (range, LOS, etc.), but you don't affect them yet.

resolved = you resolve the effect according to the state when it was triggered

So in the example with Chain Grab and Scything Blow, if I wrap to both Chain Grab and Scything Blow in an attack, my selecting the results triggers both plays, so at that time I check who can be affected by Chain Grab (range, LOS) and I also check who will be affected by Scything Blow (who is currently in my melee range). Then I resolve e.g. Chain Grab first and pull someone in and then I resolve the Scything Blow but the newly pulled in model is not affected by it, as it was not in range when the effect was triggered. Correct?
But the Chain Grabbed target would e.g. be affected by the damage from "Overheat" if my Scything Blow kills someone like Flask, because at that time it is already pulled in, correct?

If the attack result was Push+Chain Grab I would NOT be able to push my target first to get LOS to someone I want to Chain Grab, correct?
If it were a Dodge instead of a Push, I would NOT be able to dodge to get a target for Chain Grab into LOS or range, correct?

If the attack result was Dodge+Scything Blow, I would NOT be able to dodge first to get someone new into my Scything Blow, correct?

That is my understanding from your above posts.

From this clarification I understand that a play from an attack is triggered when it is resolved.

 

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I know, I quoted that myself. And from my understanding, the ruling in this thread here contradicts the ruling in the quoted thread and I'm trying to understand what is the correct interpretation in both of these instances.

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I think comparing the ruling from this thread with the linked one is like apples and oranges.

Plays from attacks (linked thread) just behave different then plays triggered by "end of activation" (this thread) for example. Especially since "simoultaniously" has not the same meaning when talking about attacks ;)

 

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@Mootaz, Henry's post was a bit confusing because of the multiple uses of 'triggered', but if you take a closer look, he doesn't mean what you interpreted.

Selecting the guild ball result triggers the ability to use the character play.

Resolving that attack result triggers the effects of the character play.

Each chunk of attack results (dmg, dodges, pushes, each play) is resolved individually, in the order you choose. So you don't select targets and check ranges until you get to resolving that guild ball result.

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The two situations are different; results from attacks can be resolved in the order the player chooses, taking advantage of the changing game state as they are resolved. Effects triggered by events or checkpoints in the turn, while resolved in the order of the controlling players choice, are more limited.

7 hours ago, 6tus said:

This might be a stupid question, but why is Cloak of Rats an aura and not a pulse? It would be much simpler, if it was a pulse. Now, if Cloak of Rats is resolved before Second Wind, all the models in the aura should be affected with the Damage or Snare during the movement too.

image.png.90a51dcfb198d2948fee92a9a3d8c35e.png

From rulebook.

Only the models erything the aura at the time the model's activation ends are affected; Cloak of Rats is an aura that has an effect in a single instant. While functionally the same as a pulse in that respect, there are other differences.

 

 Original question has been answered, locking thread. 

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