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Edwardq

Mulligans during play.

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If a  experienced player makes a big actiavion mistake, how often do you allow them do redo the activation?    

Example would be they activates a model they are 2” from a free ball.  He sprints his full movement straight down the field and then “where you go”.  His movement never brought him within 1” of the ball.  Or they have a 2” melee but moves to attack model but moves to close and is within a counter charge. (Max 2” distance he would be not within)

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If its a friendly game, id let them take it back. No one learns anything significant or feels good about a casual game being taken to the extreme. Personally i find the game more enjoyable when its harder for me by reminding the other person about potential “gotchas” my team has, and if they want to avoid them. 

In a tournament play id ask if they could measure the snapping the ball range as they move just for cleaner play. For the counter charge thing, ask them if they are happy with where they left there model, if they reply yes say you are activating counter charge and do it on your clock, if they want to know why you asked just remind them that you have counter charge. Its an open information game, and its there choice to use all the information available. 

But this is all subjective and everyone has there own opinions and way of handling  things. If you don’t feel right about your opponent doing take backs like this without you asking let them know, in a tournament call a TO over to resolve any issues. In the end its a game and everyone is trying to have fun.

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I agree with @Tre i have played a bazillion games and still make the odd basic error from time to time (classic would be the "oops, forgot to pop my forest down" when playing Theron). In a casual match it is generally more enjoyable to let people try and play out what they had in their mnd. If they couldn't actually do, yeah give them the chance to redo the activation perhaps.

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Boils down to how ya wanna win. Do you wanna win cuz the other guy made a mistake that he then caught but a bit too late? Or do you wanna win because you played better? Some people love winning on the backs of other people's mistakes. I prefer to beat people to win. Which do you prefer? In the end we play for enjoyment. Which is more enjoyable? Oh I won because he messed up or yea I beat him.

Also realize that this is a table top game. This is not an anonymous internet game. You will have to play that same person again. Lots. So if takebacksies are annoying to you, talk about it. Discourage the other player from leaning on them so hard. Get them to relinquish a mistake instead of forcing them to hold to their action.

This is a dynamic discussion that you have to have over several games. I would caution against burning any relationship for one match with a suddenly over competitive "You already moved him and he's outa range". Especially when the intent was clear. You might win the match but when you play that guy for the next two thousand years  it'll be there... looming.... So play nice. ;>

Be a true gentleman like JJ ;> Thanks again for the takebacksie JJ. You are the best. And remember kiddies the name of the game is "don't forget to heal"

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I'd allow both of these things, assuming it's obvious they have the range to get where they needed. So long as the game state is unaffected by the error, I'm fine with it.

What I'm less keen on is returning models to roughly the original position and doing something completely different, healing at inappropriate times, moving before measuring, flipping clocks back to themselves after I've started my activation and lots of other tiny annoyances. If the opponent is clearly new, or seems to be a good sport themselves (I've been burned before by allowing some of the above only for the guy to turn into a nob later in the game), and they ask first, I may still be ok with it.

I'm just as hard on myself though, and wouldn't want to win because I was allowed a take back or sloppy declaration order. I want to win by out classing my opponent within the framework defined by the rules.

All of this just applies to tournament games, unless someone states a friendly game is tourny practise. 

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The question wasn’t about tricking the player.  I was wondering how play it with  experienced players. 

Crazyblaine,  so a tournament type player that  mistakenly puts his captain 1.5” from the edge and in front of Wreaker you wouldn’t ram him off the pitch to win?

Many times I remember I could have take a breather to heal after I said I was done or taken the counter charge when I could have  avoided it.  I don’t redo I just take it. 

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This really is a great question and fundamentally you have to ask yourself what kind of opponent do you want to be.  I agree with much of what has been stated above.  If the game is a friendly game, then I am very forgiving with my opponent, and I expect my opponent to return the favor, because I know during the course of a game, I am going to make a dumb mistake.  Even though I have been playing for 2 years, I know I make mistakes and I appreciate it when I catch myself making a mistake and am offered a chance to fix it, and I allow my opponent to do the same.   I have found that if you play hardcore during a friendly game, it does not make for a good play experience, especially if you are playing one of your folks in your gaming circle. 

During tournaments, it is a little different and I think both players need to play a tighter game.  With that said, it is worth discussing with your opponent prior to the game to see how you want to play your game.  

For me personally, I like to play a more friendly game, as it creates a more enjoyable experience, and this is supposed to be a fun game, which is why I am playing it.

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I try not to ask for take backs.  I learn more from my mistakes getting spanked for them then taking it back after the edge.  

I do not hold my opponent to the same standard.  Just because I don't forbid them because I don't use them.  If the board state can't be rewound the mistake has to stay.  Forgetting to heal before anything meaningful has happened is one if those things that is annoying but just fine.  

The wrecker example above shove the model off. I did it this week to siren and not s captain my opponent thought it was the greatest play ever. The modeonthat got shoved off had moved there a few activations earlier. I didn't see it till I started wreckers activation.  He saw my eyes light up when I saw the move and realized his mistake but had a great laugh. 

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I'm similar, Pollux. I have refused a take back on numerous occasions because I just don't feel like I'm learning otherwise. 

That said, I do take them occasionally but only in super casual games if it leads to something AWESOME. 

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I'll be honest for my self it's totally dependant on the person I'm playing. If I don't know the opponent or I'm playing the 95% I'm happy to give a take back as I know if I make a mis-step they'd be cool with allowing me to change it. However there is something like 5% of players I know from the get-go I won't be given anything back and I'm cool with that so it's an equal thing when I say no to them. 

I'd also be honest and say it depends on the environment on the game. First game in a event? Take it back. Finals of a event where normally at that level mistakes are the difference between winning or losing, I'd probably punish my opponent for making it. Likewise if I make a mistake on top table I wouldn't be asking for a take back, games are won or lost on tiny things like that. 

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I think I am more apt to give "takebacksies" than to accept them at this point. My oppenents have often been most gracious about my dumbass moves... but I have to learn to think things through and just get better! I don't really learn if I am allowed to take things back... I will learn more quickly from accepting the mistake ...and from the reoccuring nightmares I have about those missteps. :P 

(I really embarrassed myself this past weekend at a tournament...where I totally forgot about a model with unpredictable movement... and wasted a tooled up, iron fist, punishing march, loaded up Hammer activation. :P  That one is still being replayed in my silver haired head.) 

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I will usually warn people the first time they walk into any given gotcha, but if they do so again afterwards in the same game I consider that fair game. If someone has already picked up their model and moved it around I am much less likely to let them take things back than if they have proxy based out their movement or otherwise made their plans clear.

For example if they proxy up an 8" charge but don't take into account Foul Odor reducing their threat, I'm not gonna make them fail their charge. If they shove their model up the pitch and don't have any record of where they were beforehand it's a lot harder to do a takeback in a way that doesn't mess with the game state.

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I'm a bit 50/50 on taking stuff back. If it's a case of learning the game or new teams and players then I'm very lenient. This worked out quite convenient the other week when I was learning to play with Fillet, completely forgot her legendary, then realised I could take out a player and a mascot if I triggered it. My opponent was very kind to let met roll back the clock a bit and trigger the play.

But if it's very basic stuff that you and your opponent should know (assuming they are experienced at the game), stuff like miscalculating your momentum on a goal run, or forgetting that the parting blows you were about to receive from a mascot wasn't actually insignificant and actually took out the little health left on a fully stacked Hammer on the first action of the first activation of the turn (yes, I was stupid enough to let this happen!), then there are no take backs for me.

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7 hours ago, Gauntlet said:

 

For example if they proxy up an 8" charge but don't take into account Foul Odor reducing their threat, I'm not gonna make them fail their charge. If they shove their model up the pitch and don't have any record of where they were beforehand it's a lot harder to do a takeback in a way that doesn't mess with the game state.

This is what I was getting at, but better explained. With steppers laid out before anything is moved, we can both discus if the move is legal, what parting blows will be suffered etc etc. It's an open information game with premeasuring - take advantage of that and no ill feeling will ever arise from asking about take backs. 

@polluxx66 and @Lee it's absolutely the way to learn, but like you say, I'll be more forgiving of my opponent than myself. I don't really want to ruin other people's night at game club 

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Short of competitive tournament play, I let my opponents do all the take-backsies they want.  Casual game, casual players.  And because a lot of my local opponents are newer to the game, I try and point out as many of their options as possible to inform their choices before they commit to a move in the first place.

Of course, I'm much harder on myself.  If I screw up or make a mistake, I tend to force myself to accept the consequences because otherwise, I'll never learn.

- Terminus -

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On 2/10/2018 at 1:28 AM, kaladorm said:

For tournament play where do you stand on, for example: player announces tackle, you say close control, so player opts to take a different result

Nothing else has been resolved there is no game state to rewind.  In my opinion choosing a different result is just fine.  

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Is it really true that people don't learn from rewinded mistakes? I'm not convinced that there is such a huge difference as is being generally painted between a mistake that lost you a game and a rewinded mistake that would've lost you a game.

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no its not. we play a lot with mulligans. For me its mostly to play the most interesting game. And you learn the high tension situations better (the complicatet perfect placements ), to which you don't come if a mistake did not make a game one sided.

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On ‎2‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 12:32 PM, polluxx66 said:

Nothing else has been resolved there is no game state to rewind.  In my opinion choosing a different result is just fine.  

Completely agree.  If active player calls out a result that can be invalidated by a character trait (close control, steady, stoic, resistance, etc), then the player should be able to pick a different result.  This is an open information game and this feels a bit like a NPE gotcha if the player calls "tackle" and does not get to adjust his result if model has close control, especially in a timed game where the players are trying to do things quickly. 

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So to play devil's advocate, how do you feel about people choosing KD vs farmers and having millstone take it?  Does your answer change if millstone is cocky from peck?

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It could be open to abuse (i.e. to 'feel out' what the opponents plan is whether they take it or not) but I doubt that to be impactful enough to not allow changing a decision. 

 

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21 hours ago, Lemminkäinen said:

Is it really true that people don't learn from rewinded mistakes? I'm not convinced that there is such a huge difference as is being generally painted between a mistake that lost you a game and a rewinded mistake that would've lost you a game.

It's not that you don't learn, but I'm far more likely to remember something if it penalised me in a game than if I was let off with it. 

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In the casual environment, I tend to be the player that communicates openly - I won't tell them how to play, but I'll tell them what likely won't work.

Tournament, I'll answer questions. It's your responsibility to either know what the opponent can do or ask. If they don't answer or intentionally obfuscate to pull a "gotcha", they're a total ****weed.

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There's no hard and fast rule. If it's a clear brainfart that doesn't affect the game state at all (i.e. there have been no decisions after the error that depend on the outcome of the error) then I'll let it go; if it requires rewinding movement or doing something non-obvious then it's probably not OK.

Case 1 might be forgetting to snap the ball during a sprint where the ball is clearly within 1" of the model during its travel, and/or the movement end point is clearly within the max move.

 

Case 2 might be where the ball isn't clearly withing an inch of the model's movement path, the end of the movement point is at or very close to max move (so there's no "wiggle room" where the sprint could've just snaked a bit), or they've taken an attack with the option of a counter since moving (since I could've tackled the ball away).

 

It's best to avoid the situation completely by being vocal about intent before taking actions, and pointing out gotchas (once) either at the start of the game or where it's likely to affect an activation. Have to be careful here, though, as you CAN get an advantage by pointing out gotchas and influencing the opponents play, and that's just as unsporting as no pointing them out at all in some cases.

 

I like to throw The Theory and Practice of Gamesmanship: or The Art of Winning Games Without Actually Cheating into these discussions -- it's a very tongue-in-cheek discussion of the sketchy things you can do in competitive environments to gain an edge.

 

 

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