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PVC Fishers and Butchers

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21 hours ago, Fish-in-a-Beer said:

That's neat- the game seems cool.  I'd never heard of it, but I'm stateside; France is a mythic land of beautiful things to folks like me. =)

It is a very cool game. It has similar emphasis on positioning as GB does in that almost every model can threaten 20cm but can move 30cm and the table is only 60x60cm so it's a very "gamey" game in that sense. And a single game is only 45 minutes to one hour so it's nicely light in that sense. Oh, and a full tournament sized list is between three and six models most of the time (you can build an eight model extreme build but most of the time you're operating in the lower end of that three to six). It's a shame that it is so unknown outside of France.

21 hours ago, Fish-in-a-Beer said:

Bloodbowl's rules aren't free online, so you have to buy the core game to get the rulebook.  Beyond that, you need the Deathzone book your team roster is in.  A new player for GB can download everything they need ruleswise from the website.

Same for Necromunda- and if you want to play it properly (in three dimensions and/or as a campaign), you need not just the core rulebook but Gang War 1 (and you'll need Gang War 2 as well if you want to play Orlocks).

Ah, that's probably a cultural difference thing! Here, if I wanted someone to start Blood Bowl, I'd advice them to buy a team and that's it. In my gaming circle there's basically no game where the number of rulebooks owned matches the number of people playing. The people who like books (like me!) buy them and learn the rules and loan the books around if needed.

But I can easily see that going different in other environments (like more formal gaming clubs, for example).

But summa summarum, I very much agree that the total investment for starting GB is on the very lowest end of the spectrum when it comes to minis games and I guess that was the actual argument unless one wants to start splitting hairs about which one is the very cheapest (like I ended up doing)... :P 

I do think, though, that even though the investment is small, the perceived value of a PVC team is lower than it is for a metal team for many people and the price hike for the PVC teams is pretty large so that might be costing SFG some sales. Pure speculation, mind, and they naturally have way more data to use for analysis so this is mostly idle conversation on my part.

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I'm disappointed to see this fail.  As a newer player I'm completely sold on ready to play teams, with pre-assembled miniatures and tokens included.  I was looking forward to picking up some of the existing guilds in the new format, not sure I'll do so in metal (certainly not as many).  Also, I wanted Fisherman and Butchers as teams with more straight forward strategies to show off to friends.  The current PVC options tend towards more complicated interactions, lots of tokens to deal with, exceptions to the standard rules, etc.  If the move to PVC is supposed to make the game more accessible to new players, I don't think the design of the new teams is helping that so far.

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51 minutes ago, Intergalactic Slacks said:

I'm disappointed to see this fail.  As a newer player I'm completely sold on ready to play teams, with pre-assembled miniatures and tokens included.  I was looking forward to picking up some of the existing guilds in the new format, not sure I'll do so in metal (certainly not as many).  Also, I wanted Fisherman and Butchers as teams with more straight forward strategies to show off to friends.  The current PVC options tend towards more complicated interactions, lots of tokens to deal with, exceptions to the standard rules, etc.  If the move to PVC is supposed to make the game more accessible to new players, I don't think the design of the new teams is helping that so far.

I agree with all of this.

I picked up the Kick Off box last summer and split it with a friend and am looking to expand with another team or two. I'd been looking at fish and saw the indiegogo fish as the perfect opportunity as I'm more into playing than painting. The blacksmith and the farmer boxes are how I'd want the game to hit the shelves. Boxes with all the models and token you need to play plus some terrain. Rules are downloadable and at least here in Oslo, Norway, we have a couple of GB mats we can play on available in the store.

I also agree that they should dial back the complicated rules with two tons of setup and make a team or two that is more straightforward to play available in similar boxes.

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26 minutes ago, Jotnebane said:

I also agree that they should dial back the complicated rules

I think the current rule set is what attracted most people to the game. Anything you can play in 90 minutes with a complete stranger can't be that complicated.

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3 minutes ago, Wynter said:

I think the current rule set is what attracted most people to the game. Anything you can play in 90 minutes with a complete stranger can't be that complicated.

Let me be more precise. 

The rules are fine, but the latest guilds are among the more complicated ones more difficult for beginners to master than the more straight forward guilds. 

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1 minute ago, Jotnebane said:

Let me be more precise. 

The rules are fine, but the latest guilds are among the more complicated ones more difficult for beginners to master than the more straight forward guilds. 

Ok, I gotcha. Yes, I concur.

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What makes this trickier for me is that I'm finding it really hard to find single models for the older metals I bought off eBay. Are they just not sold anymore in favour of the bigger boxes?

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I'd agree with comments above that Steamforged should think about one of the new minor (or major) guilds in PVC being a "simpler" team to play, designed to attract new players. Farmers are quite complicated with harvest markers, ratcatchers have the disease mechanic to master etc.

Just as a crazy compromise idea ... what about an "easy assemble" alternate-sculpt pack of butchers or fish in metal. There are some really nice metal figures that have come in one piece (Veteran Brisket, Solthecian Gutter, Ltd. Edition Millstone for example). You could put together a team of one-piece metals, maybe new sculpts, and throw in some cardboard tokens in the box. Good for new players, and old collectors.

Failing that, if Salt wins the mascot competition, maybe they can release the new Salt sculpt in metal!

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31 minutes ago, Jam Sandwich said:

What makes this trickier for me is that I'm finding it really hard to find single models for the older metals I bought off eBay. Are they just not sold anymore in favour of the bigger boxes?

They've been discontinued... you may be able to find rogue retailers who may have some singles, or maybe a retailer who has broken up boxes.  But for now, it's boxes or bust!  Well, unless you're talking hunters.

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There's are still a handful of singles officially available, albeit mostly Union I think (Harry, Mist and sBrisket don't come in either box.) 

But otherwise, yeah, nightmare if you didn't have either the whole faction or precisely the right missing models prior to the switch. 

Fortunately, I only needed vGraves and Vileswarm to finish my Morts, and there were plenty of those in any number of places! :D Rounding out the Union was harder, but kept me occupied during the down time over Christmas, and the extra Fangtooth and Minx I ended up with almost offset half of the very reasonably priced Bloody Coin box I picked up. 

That's your way forward though, eBay and the less well known retailers, either online or IRL, and if you do end up with spares, be sure to pay it forward and offer them rather than let them gather dust.

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38 minutes ago, Yubnub said:

They've been discontinued... you may be able to find rogue retailers who may have some singles, or maybe a retailer who has broken up boxes.  But for now, it's boxes or bust!  Well, unless you're talking hunters.

Damn, that's no good. Oh well, good to know at least!

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18 hours ago, ADG said:

Just as a crazy compromise idea ... what about an "easy assemble" alternate-sculpt pack of butchers or fish in metal. There are some really nice metal figures that have come in one piece (Veteran Brisket, Solthecian Gutter, Ltd. Edition Millstone for example). You could put together a team of one-piece metals, maybe new sculpts, and throw in some cardboard tokens in the box. Good for new players, and old collectors.

Damnit, i can only like this once.

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22 hours ago, ADG said:

Just as a crazy compromise idea ... what about an "easy assemble" alternate-sculpt pack of butchers or fish in metal. There are some really nice metal figures that have come in one piece (Veteran Brisket, Solthecian Gutter, Ltd. Edition Millstone for example). You could put together a team of one-piece metals, maybe new sculpts, and throw in some cardboard tokens in the box. Good for new players, and old collectors.

Love single piece minis, and by that I mean ones that are sculpted and cast in one piece, not like the PVC GUB models which are cast in multiple parts then glued together in the factory. The poses on mulit-parts might look better and be more dynamic (sometimes) but the singles are so much easier to paint and much more resilient.  A good sculptor can do wonders no matter the process - look at the original Eldrad Ulthran from 40k or the Burrow & Badgers models.

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16 minutes ago, Larhendiel said:

Ok so NO fishermen or butchers in plastic, bot what with the money we were charged?

Will they be refunded or got lost?

Indiegogo’s setup on that type of campaign is that if it fails, any money pledged is returned. Entirely in IGG’s hands I believe - SFG don’t get anything unless the campaign met its funding goal, so they don’t get any money.

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On 18/02/2018 at 2:50 PM, Mako said:

Indiegogo’s setup on that type of campaign is that if it fails, any money pledged is returned. Entirely in IGG’s hands I believe - SFG don’t get anything unless the campaign met its funding goal, so they don’t get any money.

Having worked on two this is accurate. It might take them a week or so but everyone should get there money back.

 

I would say if they did the two "teams" so split the indie into team A butchers, team A  fisherman  or a few " exclusives " maybe... themed brisket, or mermaid siren you might get people backing for those. People like exclusives... look at kingdom Deaths pin ups they always sell out.

Even allow people to back for just those and you could probably hit your target.

Then do the B teams in a few months it might have got better traction.

 

 

Just an idea 

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I started guild ball just few months ago and I got all new plastic teams. The detail and quality of pvc is incredible and I'm really disappointed to see these campaings to fail as the old guilds are awesome and The Butchers are my favourite.

I'm sure this all has been said before but release of completely new game Godtear, two new guild ball teams (second box of Farmers and Blacksmiths) and then two campaings for 100$ at the same time and expecting them to pass? It's really hard to understand the decisions of Steamforged, unless they wanted these campaings to fail (as, if I'm not mistaken, it has been said that all old teams will come in plastic). Has there been any other response than "Oh well, we tried?"

Why also give up so easily? Why not run a single kickstarter campaing to try once more?

 

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9 hours ago, Reliablenine said:

they wanted these campaings to fail

Seems to me that it's quite likely this is true. As you and a great many others have commented, there are pretty obvious and easy ways they could have tried harder to make them succeed.

I think SFG has given up on the idea of the older guilds ever existing in plastic. See also: the Shattered Loyalties (including a new model for the Farmers) and third Union box that were just announced and will release in metal and the alternate models for minor/major crossover players that are coming in the minor guild release event kits, which are also metal. I think it's a safe assumption that new team box sets will continue to release in plastic, but nothing related to the first nine teams or any additional models for the newer teams. The minor guilds won't even be fully available in plastic, as two of their eight roster choices will only ever be metal models.

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Eh, there's lots of things they could've made to make the campaigns succeed but they didn't want them to succeed artificially. The point was to test the waters whether there was enough interest to make it profitable. There wasn't. Had they included stretch goals and limited edition models and whatnot, it wouldn't have served their purpose.

But I think that we should move on from this. Metal teams are here to stays for quite a while, it seems, and being bitter about won't help anyone.

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Disappoints me a great deal this failed.  I thought the whole campaign was underdone and it saddens me that they are not appearing to commit to updating the early models to plastic.  Basically means I'll not progress much, if at all, beyond the 2-player starter set, I'm sick of fragile hard to assemble metal models.

Anyway... in particular:

  • Indiegogo is a very limited platform, I myself avoid it for security issues and running the campaign solely there limited its viability.
  • It is only by accident I even found out about the campaign at all, that may be because Australia does not have a huge GB community but it also seems to me that the bulk of the advertising/support was on their own website.  Problem is this is mostly frequented regularly by committed players, the new plastics highest attraction would surely be the new or non-GB gamers maybe looking to start the hobby.  I think the entire campaign had very limited exposure to its best target audience.

So, not bitter.  I'll just spend my money elsewhere. 

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My problem with metal figures, and it seems to be a general concern, is assembly. But the new plastic models (Smiths, Peasants – yesssss precioussss we hatses them) are all cast in one piece. If that (one piece casts) could be done with metal models, I honestly would not care what material they were in. 

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Yeah the plastic teams are far from single-piece casts. I counted well over twenty separate pieces in each of the Blacksmiths boxes, for example.

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