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PVC Fishers and Butchers

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11 minutes ago, Scapegoat_Stephen said:

More contents seems like for like to be cheaper to me. Price point is the same but you get so much more for it :)

Pray  tell how the Ratcatchers have more content than Farmers or Blacksmiths? And what makes the price point of 45£ for one and 35£ for the other same or fair? 

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28 minutes ago, Scapegoat_Stephen said:

More contents seems like for like to be cheaper to me. Price point is the same but you get so much more for it :)

I'm comparing Farmers to Ratcatchers, you're comparing metal box to Ratcatchers.

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For me, the removal of a huge barrier of entry to a cool game by switching to single-piece, colour-coded models that are still (IMO) excellent quality and look great on the pitch is worth more than the same models in unassembled metal. I'm not a hobbyist, I just want to play Guild Ball! :)

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3 hours ago, Selfy said:

Yes, I assumed that was why. But I also assumed Steamforged would have the decency to say so. To the average person it looks like SF have hiked the price of a six man box by £10 for no real reason.

To make more money seems a legit reason. 

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6 hours ago, Varred said:

Pray  tell how the Ratcatchers have more content than Farmers or Blacksmiths? And what makes the price point of 45£ for one and 35£ for the other same or fair? 

Apologies we had been discussing metal vs plastic comparison.

Although again from what I can see locally it's just over £5 increase from £35 to £40.50 so I'm unsure where the £10 comes in? Is that SFG pricing on their store? I'm going by prices at FLGS which I know I am very lucky to have (only took 5 years of 2 different stores changing hands to get someone who runs 1 of them to support wargames).

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19 minutes ago, Scapegoat_Stephen said:

Apologies we had been discussing metal vs plastic comparison.

Although again from what I can see locally it's just over £5 increase from £35 to £40.50 so I'm unsure where the £10 comes in? Is that SFG pricing on their store? I'm going by prices at FLGS which I know I am very lucky to have (only took 5 years of 2 different stores changing hands to get someone who runs 1 of them to support wargames).

RRP seems to have gone from £35 to £45, though of course many stores take off 10% so it’s £31.50 to £40.50. 

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And some places sell the Farmers and Blacksmiths guild for under 35 pounds. Hell, I've seen the Alchemists lure of gold box sell for less than what SFG are charging for a Farmers box. We're getting too hung up on the price's actual number. The fact that's being debated is that the Ratcachers will be costing more than any of the Farmers or Blacksmiths boxes, despite giving you the same thing essentially: 6 models, 1 goal, 1 terrain and a bunch of cardboard bits. Looking at US$ prices on the SDFG store, it's still cheaper than the metal boxes. But what people are asking is if this price change will be permantent going forward, and will it still be worth it.

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5 minutes ago, Redtiger7 said:

And some places sell the Farmers and Blacksmiths guild for under 35 pounds. Hell, I've seen the Alchemists lure of gold box sell for less than what SFG are charging for a Farmers box. We're getting too hung up on the price's actual number. The fact that's being debated is that the Ratcachers will be costing more than any of the Farmers or Blacksmiths boxes, despite giving you the same thing essentially: 6 models, 1 goal, 1 terrain and a bunch of cardboard bits. Looking at US$ prices on the SDFG store, it's still cheaper than the metal boxes. But what people are asking is if this price change will be permantent going forward, and will it still be worth it.

I wonder if Ratcatchers have more tokens? Maybe it's just SFG undersold the Farmers & Blacksmiths are with their expansion (Godtear and moving to PVC) just need some more cash? Seems like the most logical reason.

Also worth mentioning Brexit probably knocked their overseas purchasing and selling power down.

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What more tokens would they have? Blacksmiths have the all the tokens they use. I'd reckon Ratcatchers would have as well. It does look like an identical boxset except for the pretty generous price hike. :D

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Costs go up. Inflation sucks. Was bound to happen eventually. Still cheaper than any other game and a great all in one box. Ratcatchers pre ordered with “local” store. 

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49 minutes ago, Toqtamish said:

Costs go up. Inflation sucks. Was bound to happen eventually. Still cheaper than any other game and a great all in one box. Ratcatchers pre ordered with “local” store. 

Costs can go up, sure, but it doesn't mean that everyone will pay those prices. Inflation does suck. Cheaper than any other game? Surely not. The content is indeed great, basically, just the material isn't and the price neither. :)

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I think you'd be hard pressed to find a game that you can get a whole playable team/force for that price.  I'm state-side, so I only know the prices in USD, but $60 is significantly less than it would cost you here to get into X-Wing, anything GW produces, Warmachine, Malifaux, Infinity...none of those can offer a "one box with everything you need" like a GB team box can.

Even at $100 for the two Farmers/Blacksmiths boxes, $120 for the proposed PVC resculpts, or $150 for the two metal boxes of any other team, Guild Ball is still in my opinion just about the most affordable minis game on the market.

I do think, however, that we're comparing apples and oranges a little bit here by throwing the Ratcatchers into the mix.  The PVC Fish/Butchers would eventually be the products a person would buy to get into the game.  I don't think the minor guilds are intended as a first stop for new players.  Maybe Steamforged just realized that they were marketing too low at $50 with Farmers/Blacksmiths and that they had to go up to $60 to cover their costs, regardless of Major/Minor guild status?

As far as the material goes, I'm not in love with PVC, but I don't hate it, and I have no love of metal.  Hard plastic would obviously be my preference, but I know that's prohibitively expensive for a company like SFG.  My Farmers and Brewers have held up well and look great painted up.  I was disappointed with the PVC sculpts for Fallow and Thresher (Thresher in particular), but I like the PVC Millstone and Ploughman out of Farmers2, and have loved most of the Farmers1 models and the Kick-Off resculpts of the Brewers as well.  Ferrite, Furnace, and Cinder are all really good uses of the medium in Blacksmiths1, too.

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I'd rather have the new vet Graves and Bonesaw sculpts in the ratcatchers box rather than the goal, terrain and ball. That would give it more value for me.

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4 hours ago, Fish-in-a-Beer said:

I think you'd be hard pressed to find a game that you can get a whole playable team/force for that price.  I'm state-side, so I only know the prices in USD, but $60 is significantly less than it would cost you here to get into X-Wing, anything GW produces, Warmachine, Malifaux, Infinity...none of those can offer a "one box with everything you need" like a GB team box can.

Blood Bowl? Shadespire (a bit simlar to Godtear, perhaps?)? Necromunda? That's three GW games right there.

Then if we go beyond GW, Eden most definitely. Pulp City as well. Bushido is pretty close as well. Twisted is $70 so a tiny bit more, granted.

But I think that the bottom line is that the IGG campaigns look to be failing pretty hard. And I would be surprised if the price point wasn't part of the equation.

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I can't speak to Eden, Pulp City, Bushido, or Twisted, but I feel like Steamforged/GB is ascending to the "big league" of games and gaming companies (GW, PP, FFG) in terms of tourney/con presence and that carries some extra weight in terms of value.  I can speak to Blood Bowl and Necromunda, as I play both, and both are more expensive than Guild Ball to start, whether you're getting a single team and the rules or the starter box (Necromunda's starter is $150).  Shadespire is cheaper, but I don't think it has the depth or value GB does.

To the more relevant point, though, I agree with you:  I'm sure price point is indeed part of the equation for the IGG campaigns looking like they're going to fall short.  I'm willing to pay $100 (even $120) for the Fish resculpts, but not the Butchers, so I guess I'm part of the problem there!

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If it was $50 to get half the  butchers team, they'd have my money. $100 and I have to think about it, even if it is good value. But to me, it has nothing to do with value, but with how much money I can afford to spend.

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15 hours ago, Lemminkäinen said:

Blood Bowl? Shadespire (a bit simlar to Godtear, perhaps?)? Necromunda? That's three GW games right there.

Then if we go beyond GW, Eden most definitely. Pulp City as well. Bushido is pretty close as well. Twisted is $70 so a tiny bit more, granted.

But I think that the bottom line is that the IGG campaigns look to be failing pretty hard. And I would be surprised if the price point wasn't part of the equation.

Also to point out all of those also provide a better material for the minis. :)

But yes, they do indeed seem to be doing so. 

12 hours ago, Fish-in-a-Beer said:

To the more relevant point, though, I agree with you:  I'm sure price point is indeed part of the equation for the IGG campaigns looking like they're going to fall short.  I'm willing to pay $100 (even $120) for the Fish resculpts, but not the Butchers, so I guess I'm part of the problem there!

I'm not so sure about you being a problem of anything but rather there being a problem with the product, the way it's handled and marketed etc. The reason they're failing surely aren't the fault of the fan base not throwing their money at it. 

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I agree the product is cool. If they ran this campaign tomorrow, I'd throw in again because I like the aesthetic of the new fishermen.

I wish the campaign was more friendly to new players. This totally relied on the existing player base. There was no introduction, information or video for someone who landed on the page. Second component is these campaigns rely on hype. With no stretch goals, they needed to do something like involving backers in the storylines, etc. Finally, it would have been nice to see regular updates or information that was unique and shareable to keep the momentum moving.

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2 hours ago, SimjinSmythe said:

I agree the product is cool. If they ran this campaign tomorrow, I'd throw in again because I like the aesthetic of the new fishermen.

I wish the campaign was more friendly to new players. This totally relied on the existing player base. There was no introduction, information or video for someone who landed on the page. Second component is these campaigns rely on hype. With no stretch goals, they needed to do something like involving backers in the storylines, etc. Finally, it would have been nice to see regular updates or information that was unique and shareable to keep the momentum moving.

same, but i wish they had the team split (butchers here) or offer some limited versions of fillet. i didn't mind dropping 100 but 50 would be better 

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21 hours ago, Fish-in-a-Beer said:

I can't speak to Eden, Pulp City, Bushido, or Twisted, but I feel like Steamforged/GB is ascending to the "big league" of games and gaming companies (GW, PP, FFG) in terms of tourney/con presence and that carries some extra weight in terms of value.  I can speak to Blood Bowl and Necromunda, as I play both, and both are more expensive than Guild Ball to start, whether you're getting a single team and the rules or the starter box (Necromunda's starter is $150).  Shadespire is cheaper, but I don't think it has the depth or value GB does.

Well, Eden has something like a hundred tournament a year with the bigger ones having 75 or more players. Of course it's mostly limited to France and enjoys much less popularity outside of it.

Also, how is Bloodbowl more expensive than GB? A Dwarf team with 12 models, three balls, and plastic RR and Score counters is 25 euros. GB is nearly four times as much and the models are PVC as opposed to HIPS. That's downright terrible!

And Necromunda gangs are 32.50€ for ten models. GB is three times more expensive - though that's for 12 models rather than 10 so let's be super conservative and say that it is only twice as expensive. That's still not very good.

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2 hours ago, Lemminkäinen said:

Well, Eden has something like a hundred tournament a year with the bigger ones having 75 or more players. Of course it's mostly limited to France and enjoys much less popularity outside of it.

That's neat- the game seems cool.  I'd never heard of it, but I'm stateside; France is a mythic land of beautiful things to folks like me. =)

2 hours ago, Lemminkäinen said:

Also, how is Bloodbowl more expensive than GB? A Dwarf team with 12 models, three balls, and plastic RR and Score counters is 25 euros. GB is nearly four times as much and the models are PVC as opposed to HIPS. That's downright terrible!

Bloodbowl's rules aren't free online, so you have to buy the core game to get the rulebook.  Beyond that, you need the Deathzone book your team roster is in.  A new player for GB can download everything they need ruleswise from the website.

 

2 hours ago, Lemminkäinen said:

And Necromunda gangs are 32.50€ for ten models. GB is three times more expensive - though that's for 12 models rather than 10 so let's be super conservative and say that it is only twice as expensive. That's still not very good.

Same for Necromunda- and if you want to play it properly (in three dimensions and/or as a campaign), you need not just the core rulebook but Gang War 1 (and you'll need Gang War 2 as well if you want to play Orlocks).

Please don't get me wrong- I love both Blood Bowl and Necromunda (the original Necromunda remains my favorite miniatures game of all time) and play both of them quite a lot, but they're both more expensive to start up than Guild Ball, largely as a result of players needing to purchase more than just the models in order to play.  You can get by for a bit on loaned books, but sooner or later, you really need your own copies.

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Guild Ball from DAY ONE has had some of the most expensive PER MODEL prices in general. But overall, the game is relatively inexpensive to play bare bones, because you only need 6 models to buy-in. 

PVC versus metal debate, I don't want to bother getting into that, because it's an argument no one can win. We just all have to accept whatever happens, happens.

Indiegogo: I have no problem with SF doing it this way. In fact, it's the noblest way you could crowd fund... Sell only enough units to break even on claimed start-up costs and then let retailers sell the rest. We shouldn't be mad at this, especially if the other option is "we don't feel confident in this investment, so it's just not going to happen at all." Quite frankly, timing or marketing for this project doesn't matter. If SF's own player base can't support this very limited amount of units (only 800!) to get the ball rolling, then it really shouldn't happen. Because they already have inventory and production of these same teams floating around in stores, and distribution centers. 

As far as price increases for PVC... Yeah, that's going to happen no matter what. If new boxes came in metal, the prices would have increased too. SF doesn't owe an explanation. You either buy, or you don't. PP's process have been steadily increasing year-after-year. Old models stay there same price, but new ones are WAY more expensive. But all-in-all, GB is very inexpensive for this category of game and experience you get...

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Necro is something you can stagger buy though ( less so with GB ). After buying the box- the items you don't want you can sell on.. i guess you can do so with GB too with kick off if you want.

£50 ish isn't bad for a team ( i guess you get cards and tokens in the plastic boxes? )

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The Necromunda/BB price argument doesn't really hold water, for me. 

The sets might be cheaper but you're looking at buying at two to get everything you might want as your team/gang grows.

Every model in GB is a named special character. You can only have one in your team, and so you're only ever likely to need to one of each model. These tend to be more expensive as a result. Same with NSC's in pretty much any other system.

 

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12 hours ago, Lee said:

The Necromunda/BB price argument doesn't really hold water, for me. 

The sets might be cheaper but you're looking at buying at two to get everything you might want as your team/gang grows.

Every model in GB is a named special character. You can only have one in your team, and so you're only ever likely to need to one of each model. These tend to be more expensive as a result. Same with NSC's in pretty much any other system.

 

While I'm inclined to agree. I do wish individuals were available.

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