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    • Mako

      Training Ground   02/14/2018

      There’s a new section in the guild ball area designed to help rookies, but it needs others to help out - why not write a post for it? Anything that’s good for people to know, whatever faction they’re starting out with!
Code Ronin

PVC Fishers and Butchers

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4 hours ago, MartyJB said:

 

The BrokenToad stuff is out of SFG control, but at least it would have made it easier for people to pledge their Support for SFG on the various 'new' releases. Cause don't forget, there's the Ratcatchers heading out soon as well.    

I   have already prepaid for them with my LFGS. That is one of the reasons I am not backing these 2 teams. Had they turned up in summer it may have been different.

I was't whooping about them or Godtear at Steamcon either. I was very much in the minority there.

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I would love to get Fish plastics. I think they look great. But I already have the 2 player starter so I would be even more excited to get the remainder of the Masons and Brewers in plastic first. 

I love plastic models. I prefer them in every way. 

When god tear releases in plastic I will back it. Metal models for that game is the one reason I am not buying into it now.

15 plus years of of dealing with metal models like assembling, painting, reassembling because it broke when I knocked it off the table (yes I pinned it), repainting it because it bumped into another metal model and chipped, create a new weapon for it because it broke and is too small to pin etc etc has taken a toll on me. Just give me ready to play plastics please. 

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Wouldn't it have made more sense to do the remaining Masons and Brewers as well as rebox the Kickoff ones with goal and terrain (moulds already made, little to no additional outlay on them), or to put the Major guild of the Minor guild released that year in PVC so new players buying the minor can get hold of the extra two models to go in the guild? Current rumours (no official timetable from SFG) would mean people with Ratcatchers either need to buy the £50 metal box (no tokens, goal or terrain compared to the plastic that got them into the game...) or wait 4 years for Morts to be done in plastic. Surely the minor guilds are going to create additional interest in their majors due to the 'value for money' of having both, so having both in plastic at the same time would make more sense.

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The ratcatchers aren't particularly great value, in my opinion, at £45. The same cost as a metal box, but with goal and terrain.

I'm not over enthralled with PVC, to be frank. I prefer metal. But at least they were going to be cheaper. Or so I thought.........

Having said that I had my heart set on the ratcatchers and will probably still buy them. An explanation for the price increase would have been nice though.

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1 hour ago, Selfy said:

The ratcatchers aren't particularly great value, in my opinion, at £45. The same cost as a metal box, but with goal and terrain.

I'm not over enthralled with PVC, to be frank. I prefer metal. But at least they were going to be cheaper. Or so I thought.........

Having said that I had my heart set on the ratcatchers and will probably still buy them. An explanation for the price increase would have been nice though.

That £45 includes a Ltd edition Captain model as well. So same price as metal team nets you 7 players (Inc Ltd edition Captain), themed ball, scenery piece, themed goal and all the cardboard tokens you need for the team. PVC box in total seems to be quite a bit cheaper to me with all the extras you get in it over a metal box :)

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3 hours ago, Selfy said:

The ratcatchers aren't particularly great value, in my opinion, at £45. The same cost as a metal box, but with goal and terrain.

I'm not over enthralled with PVC, to be frank. I prefer metal. But at least they were going to be cheaper. Or so I thought.........

Having said that I had my heart set on the ratcatchers and will probably still buy them. An explanation for the price increase would have been nice though.

I don't like the PVC models either, but it's hard to argue they are less value for money just on the material side when you get all the things @Scapegoat_Stephen mentioned for the same or less price (are you sure the LE captains are included in the price, Steven, or is that just a deal lots of LGS are doing? I'm only comparing RRP to keep it fair). The problem is that there is no way to expand or diversify those minor guilds unless you cough up for a metal team, and as SFG's whole reason for the PVC is that 'metals turn off potential players', not having the major guild in PVC close to the minor release seems counter intuitive.

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55 minutes ago, S_A_T_S said:

The problem is that there is no way to expand or diversify those minor guilds unless you cough up for a metal team, and as SFG's whole reason for the PVC is that 'metals turn off potential players', not having the major guild in PVC close to the minor release seems counter intuitive.

Plus, as SFG has moved away from the blisters, you have to spend a further £45/£50 for another 6 (metal) models, as opposed to just getting the models you need for the minor guild.

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I think you only get the LE Piper, from Retailers. The set price has gone up to £45 for the Six players, Goal and Terrain piece, I think that all of the Minor Guilds will be £45/set of 6 and possibly any new Major Guilds that come out. I think that new Major Guilds will be a few years away, as I think the Minor Guilds are taking priority.

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2 hours ago, S_A_T_S said:

SFG's whole reason for the PVC is that 'metals turn off potential players', not having the major guild in PVC close to the minor release seems counter intuitive.

Is it really? Interesting. I would think for a company that started out as a miniature company pvc would be the material to turn off potential players. I mean surely they can attract board gamers with pvc but not so much with miniature gamers / hobbyists. 

That's quite an interesting thought. Thanks for sharing. :)

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2 hours ago, S_A_T_S said:

I don't like the PVC models either, but it's hard to argue they are less value for money just on the material side when you get all the things @Scapegoat_Stephen mentioned for the same or less price (are you sure the LE captains are included in the price, Steven, or is that just a deal lots of LGS are doing? I'm only comparing RRP to keep it fair). The problem is that there is no way to expand or diversify those minor guilds unless you cough up for a metal team, and as SFG's whole reason for the PVC is that 'metals turn off potential players', not having the major guild in PVC close to the minor release seems counter intuitive.

I can pick up a metal team for £45 from my FLGS (or from an online retailer plus pnp if I didn't live close enough to physically pick it up) and I am able to collect Ractcatchers with a limited edition model for the same price. If there is a discount there it's the same discount :P

 

Also to state my position I like metals as much as the next wargamer but PVC is cheaper and will attract more new people. It's the way forward.

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1 hour ago, Furnace said:

Is it really? Interesting. I would think for a company that started out as a miniature company pvc would be the material to turn off potential players. I mean surely they can attract board gamers with pvc but not so much with miniature gamers / hobbyists. 

That's quite an interesting thought. Thanks for sharing. :)

That does seem to be the reason, at least according to many people in this and other threads. You can see their rational - a £35-45 box with literally everything you need, no assembly or painting (urgh, not keen on that rule...) required. Much easier for boardgamers/X-Wing types to get into. As I keep repeating, it's the way they have gone about it that is frustrating and irritating.

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1 hour ago, S_A_T_S said:

That does seem to be the reason, at least according to many people in this and other threads. You can see their rational - a £35-45 box with literally everything you need, no assembly or painting (urgh, not keen on that rule...) required. Much easier for boardgamers/X-Wing types to get into. As I keep repeating, it's the way they have gone about it that is frustrating and irritating.

Oh aye, I'm interested in the logic of it and I can see the reasoning behind it. I'm not saying it's executed very well and my personal opinion is that I highly prefer metal over pvc. Well, anything over pvc but I rather enjoy painting and painting pvc is a painful process and feels much a wasted effort and time. Where as painting the sfg metals has become my new favourite line to paint, such great sculpts. 

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8 hours ago, Scapegoat_Stephen said:

That £45 includes a Ltd edition Captain model as well. So same price as metal team nets you 7 players (Inc Ltd edition Captain), themed ball, scenery piece, themed goal and all the cardboard tokens you need for the team. PVC box in total seems to be quite a bit cheaper to me with all the extras you get in it over a metal box :)

There's no mention of the limited edition Piper, or the tokens, in the Steamforged online shop!

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All new PVC sets contain the Cardboard versions of the team tokens, normally under the minis. The LE Piper model, is only available from LGS that sell the product as an advanced order Wyldstorm Games is one such place.

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Which is the same price for the boxset then as the metal teams are. Goal and a small piece of terrain doesn't really make it very cheap and affordable. 

Also, the 45 pound price tag for a pvc team is quite frankly, too high. If it gets you a metal team at the same price. 

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13 minutes ago, Furnace said:

Which is the same price for the boxset then as the metal teams are. Goal and a small piece of terrain doesn't really make it very cheap and affordable. 

Also, the 45 pound price tag for a pvc team is quite frankly, too high. If it gets you a metal team at the same price. 

So the team at my FLGS is £40 pushing to £45 with a Ltd edition model. I'm unsure what would constitute 'good value' to you when for the same price as metal team you are getting:

Ltd edition extra model

Terrain piece

Goal marker

Tokens for the team

Health dials

Alternate themed ball

 

I'm actually interested to know what you feel would make it good value? I get the some people prefer metal argument but I'm struggling to understand your point. I'm not looking to call you out or start an argument just want to understand :)

 

These PVC boxes allow people to play straight out of the box whilst building up a scenery collection. I know of no other wargame out there that is so accessible to new people.

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21 minutes ago, Scapegoat_Stephen said:

I'm actually interested to know what you feel would make it good value? I get the some people prefer metal argument but I'm struggling to understand your point. I'm not looking to call you out or start an argument just want to understand :)

First off, appreciate this a lot. Thank you. Rarely do you see such a post. 

In my mind it's the material that vastly drops the value. Because if you put a pvc model next to a metal model, it's not even close. Heck you don't even need the comparison to see that pvc isn't a very good material for a hobbyist. 

Now I'm not saying that a terrain piece, a joke ball and a goal marker isn't good. As they quite are and I'm not arguing that. 

I'm just saying that they don't up the price of pvc to the same class as the metal starters. And the limited edition model, it's an lgs offer, for now and for those fortunate enough to have an lgs with that offer available. So that doesn't quite make it to the equation. Also it's not a 7 player box set, it's a 6 player box set with an alternative. 

Are you catching my drift now? :) I'm not entirely sure if I can explain it in English. 

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16 minutes ago, Furnace said:

First off, appreciate this a lot. Thank you. Rarely do you see such a post. 

In my mind it's the material that vastly drops the value. Because if you put a pvc model next to a metal model, it's not even close. Heck you don't even need the comparison to see that pvc isn't a very good material for a hobbyist. 

Now I'm not saying that a terrain piece, a joke ball and a goal marker isn't good. As they quite are and I'm not arguing that. 

I'm just saying that they don't up the price of pvc to the same class as the metal starters. And the limited edition model, it's an lgs offer, for now and for those fortunate enough to have an lgs with that offer available. So that doesn't quite make it to the equation. Also it's not a 7 player box set, it's a 6 player box set with an alternative. 

Are you catching my drift now? :) I'm not entirely sure if I can explain it in English. 

I totally understand no worries I've been wargaming for 20 years so I can see for some PVC is an issue. Let's engage in some theory and say if PVC is here to stay what do you think the box would need to make it the same value as a metal team box?

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7 minutes ago, Scapegoat_Stephen said:

I totally understand no worries I've been wargaming for 20 years so I can see for some PVC is an issue. Let's engage in some theory and say if PVC is here to stay what do you think the box would need to make it the same value as a metal team box?

Hm.. Well, I'm not sure. I did buy the Blacksmiths1 box for 35 pounds. I thought it was fair enough. But I was pretty disheartened when I got them and they've been on my table half finished for a while now. 

But I think the 35 pound mark is fair. I might consider getting a minor guild for that price if the minor guild interested me rules wise as well. Looking at you Fish minor, we need some punch. :D

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2 hours ago, Furnace said:

Hm.. Well, I'm not sure. I did buy the Blacksmiths1 box for 35 pounds. I thought it was fair enough. But I was pretty disheartened when I got them and they've been on my table half finished for a while now. 

But I think the 35 pound mark is fair. I might consider getting a minor guild for that price if the minor guild interested me rules wise as well. Looking at you Fish minor, we need some punch. :D

But the ratcatchers arent £35, they are £45. It's a stealth increase.

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I might add my 2cents here. 

While i am not too keen on a 10£ increase (50 PLN for me is way more), i understand why they did it and i believe that MAJOR Guilds will come with 35£ price tag. 

Here is why. You should consider, that SFG look to sell way less boxes of Minor Guilds than Major Guilds probably. And even if it isnt true, MAJOR comes in two boxes rather than one, so the price may be dropped a little for them as you expect to sell twice as much of that Guild compared to the MINOR. 

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14 minutes ago, Varred said:

I might add my 2cents here. 

While i am not too keen on a 10£ increase (50 PLN for me is way more), i understand why they did it and i believe that MAJOR Guilds will come with 35£ price tag. 

Here is why. You should consider, that SFG look to sell way less boxes of Minor Guilds than Major Guilds probably. And even if it isnt true, MAJOR comes in two boxes rather than one, so the price may be dropped a little for them as you expect to sell twice as much of that Guild compared to the MINOR. 

If you run the currency exchange based on the current IGG PVCs, you'll see that the Fish and Butchers are Retail $120, which is roughly 90£ for 2 boxes. If this was the trend going forward the Major guilds would be at the same 45£ price point in the future. As much as we would like them to be cheaper, they don't seem to be.

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1 hour ago, SN0flux said:

If you run the currency exchange based on the current IGG PVCs, you'll see that the Fish and Butchers are Retail $120, which is roughly 90£ for 2 boxes. If this was the trend going forward the Major guilds would be at the same 45£ price point in the future. As much as we would like them to be cheaper, they don't seem to be.

I know that. I still feel we cant' put reprints of old stuff and a very limited product nex to the new majors tht may come.
Still i might be mistaken of course.

Just my opinion :P

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10 hours ago, Varred said:

I might add my 2cents here. 

While i am not too keen on a 10£ increase (50 PLN for me is way more), i understand why they did it and i believe that MAJOR Guilds will come with 35£ price tag. 

Here is why. You should consider, that SFG look to sell way less boxes of Minor Guilds than Major Guilds probably. And even if it isnt true, MAJOR comes in two boxes rather than one, so the price may be dropped a little for them as you expect to sell twice as much of that Guild compared to the MINOR. 

Yes, I assumed that was why. But I also assumed Steamforged would have the decency to say so. To the average person it looks like SF have hiked the price of a six man box by £10 for no real reason.

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4 minutes ago, Selfy said:

Yes, I assumed that was why. But I also assumed Steamforged would have the decency to say so. To the average person it looks like SF have hiked the price of a six man box by £10 for no real reason.

More contents seems like for like to be cheaper to me. Price point is the same but you get so much more for it :)

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