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PVC Fishers and Butchers

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20 hours ago, Biff'd said:

This is my problem as well. They are putting all of the risk and burden on their existing player base, and not offering enough incentive to back the projects. 

They should have only launched one guild and offered at least one exclusive model, even if they charged full retail price for the team. Exclusive model > discount, especially when the "discount" is only to down to the price point we are already used to paying for. It also doesn't help that neither Fish or Butchers have announced minor guilds yet, so existing players don't have an obvious reason to buy them. 

Oh, well. At least we'll get all new releases in PVC going forward. 

I don't think they are putting much risk on the players. It is an advance pre-order with low incentives, other than if not enough people pre-order, then they won't make it.

 

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You see that is also a problem with me. 

I cant understand a company not talking any risk. Imagine everyone would do it. People criticise CMON for being an established company funding projects on KS and somehow they are okay with it. 

I mean, lets split it 60/40 or even 70/30 but take some of the risk on yourself. Afterall they will be making money on it after it hits.

 

For me it is somewhat u fair to be putting everything on your loyal playerbase. 

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It’s more about giving people a chance to make this happen - SFG don’t have the resources to bring the minor guilds out *and* rerelease their current model line.

If not enough people want the PVC remakes, they’ll go to the back of the queue as a “once everything else is out we might look at it again” thing (a minimum of several years time). 

The reason it’s on indiegogo not Kickstarter is because IGG leans more towards a preorder/expression of interest combined, as opposed to Kickstarter with people’s expectations of freebies and discounts. If there’s not enough interest, then that kind of outlay isn’t worth it. If they didn’t have the ability to gauge the interest in this way, they simply wouldn’t do it. 

After all, it’s not a new product they’re putting out (unlike the minor guilds) - it’s a remake of an existing one.

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@Mako I get all of it. But if I am running the company, I just don't do it until i feel the time is right and I might be able to. I'm not saying "SFG take the plunge and make it happen on your own!!!11oneone", just that IGG may not be enough to gauge real interest as noone who doesnt know the game laready is gonna back it. 

Thing that especially 'hurts me' (yes i want the Buthcers badly, but i can't accept those terms and it isnt really about the money, which is good for what u get there but the bussines model it presents feels bad for me) is how badly timed these campaigns are. Exactly as u said. Can't go with Minors and Godtear along with OgPVC so we squeeze tchem there and if it goes off we happy, if not well let's push tchem back a few years. 

Without the need on the market, sure they won't do it, but the market is divided into 4 things now so that gives crooked results on what people essentially already have compared to new stuff.

 

Okay, rant over. I Wonder if IGG fails, which it most porbably will, will they allow to get some of the sculpts through the 3d Printing service? Must get that upscaled Ox, new Fillet and Tenderiser, hell maybe all of the new sculpts barring Boiler even. I think it is something they should consider after those campaigns. 

 

Cheers 

Varred

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Yes, if it doesn't come off through IGG I would be much, much more interested in the new Tenderiser, Greyscales, etc sculpts being released in a limited fashion than the festive alt sculpts (though the others have been good, the Valentines trio are a bit weird...)

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It honestly feels to me like SFG didn't want this to succeed. On the less popular platform (irrespective of backer expectations, these are easily managed with clear communication,) with two options which are competing for money, at least for a percentage of the target audience, at a low ebb time of year for many financially, and with zero promotion that I've seen outside of their own ecosystem. 

I've put my money where my mouth is, I really like the Fish, don't own them and have been interested in getting them since I first got into the game, and responded as such from the first surveys, so I really would like to see a last minute uptake, but it really doesn't look likely...

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8 hours ago, Azreal13 said:

I've put my money where my mouth is, I really like the Fish, don't own them and have been interested in getting them since I first got into the game, and responded as such from the first surveys, so I really would like to see a last minute uptake, but it really doesn't look likely...

Same here. 

But I guess that train has left the station and won’t be coming back for a couple of years. 

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It's really too bad things were done this way. All the former board-gamers and impulse-buyers that SFG are trying to attract with pre-assembled plastic minis will now only be able to play two full guilds and the minor guilds (albeit not even the full roster for those) as they are released.

As it stands, if you are a person who's not into assembling minis, this game is largely inaccessible for you.

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5 minutes ago, RedSam said:

It's really too bad things were done this way. All the former board-gamers and impulse-buyers that SFG are trying to attract with pre-assembled plastic minis will now only be able to play two full guilds and the minor guilds (albeit not even the full roster for those) as they are released.

As it stands, if you are a person who's not into assembling minis, this game is largely inaccessible for you.

Pretty big flaw in a transformation of business model innit. 

Like... that's a huge structural flaw in your game.

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It does seem a bit weird the state they're in now. I mean they had a fantastic metal line and the game attracted miniature gamers. Suddenly they swapped out to pvc which alienates the miniature collectors and gamers for a large part as it's a pretty terrible material from a painters/hobbyists point of view and wanted to swap to pvc and attract board gamers. Now they're half way on both. The ones who want pvc are getting a half product and the ones who prefer metal either pay same price for pvc than they did for metal starters or choose not to support the game anymore. 

It's a pretty sad state really. 

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9 minutes ago, Furnace said:

It does seem a bit weird the state they're in now. I mean they had a fantastic metal line and the game attracted miniature gamers. Suddenly they swapped out to pvc which alienates the miniature collectors and gamers for a large part as it's a pretty terrible material from a painters/hobbyists point of view and wanted to swap to pvc and attract board gamers. Now they're half way on both. The ones who want pvc are getting a half product and the ones who prefer metal either pay same price for pvc than they did for metal starters or choose not to support the game anymore. 

It's a pretty sad state really. 

I agree that it stinks to be stuck in this halfway point but I don't think the minis gamers are suffering too bad. I've seen great conversions and paint jobs for the new stuff. Some of the sculpts are meh but others are pretty sweet. 

But more importantly, I think that's what the constant stream of special edition sculpts is about. Providing fresh new stuff to paint and inspire conversion ideas, without having to destabilize the game with constant rules releases.  

I think some of SFGs decisions have been right and some have been wrong, but I think the overall direction they seem to be going is positive. 

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First, I'm a new player who bought all of the Fish just a couple months ago, and I was still all about the new sculpts. As soon as I saw them from Steamcon, I knew I wanted them.

Especially, the pufferfish - long story there.

I love the game, and the guys over at Steamforged have a lot going on....maybe even too much. One campaign as a tester might have been best. I also think the campaigns could have been structured a little better to introduce new players browsing indiegogo. In addition, I think there was an opportunity to give our freebie incentives like votes toward what happens during the internal guild storylines would have been amazing no cost rewards and bonuses for supporters.

Now, I just had something waved in front of me...that I won't be able to have until who knows when. It's all learning lessons, but I hope some brainstorming and some good things finally rattle out of all this.

 

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I mean I don't think it's fair to say SFG are "Alienating players" because there models are made of metal / need to be assembled. A huge range of companies produce models in metal and only Games Workshop off the top of my head make the majority in plastic and all of those companies models need to be put together.

I also don't see how they are now stuck between halfway gap? The minor guilds will be in PVC as well as new release probably.

By your guys logic Godtear isn't for board games because they're made of metal? I get people are disappointed that the teams won't be out in PVC but I really don't think it's somehow split the playerbase so bad that some players feel like they can't collect models because they're metal, seems hugely hyperbolic

 

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1 hour ago, ForestRambo said:

By your guys logic Godtear isn't for board games because they're made of metal?

Godtear will be released in PVC.

I've got mixed feelings about the PVC teams. As a wargamer, I much prefer prep'ing and painting metal over PVC, but as a Pundit, the PVC teams are much easy to market to new players. Ideally I'd like to see the "standard" range being PVC and a premium range being metal (as the old teams currently are).

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18 minutes ago, ningu said:

Godtear will be released in PVC.

I've got mixed feelings about the PVC teams. As a wargamer, I much prefer prep'ing and painting metal over PVC, but as a Pundit, the PVC teams are much easy to market to new players. Ideally I'd like to see the "standard" range being PVC and a premium range being metal (as the old teams currently are).

Oh I did not know about Godtear, that's neat. 

Even so I feel the statements above mine were a bit hyperbolic. 

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I came into this game just as the Farmers (set 1) were being released. I've never really gotten into any of the major "wargames" (40K, WM, etc...) due to entry price. Being able to try out the game in paper or on the computer showed me what a great game it was. Love it. I hear all these tales about teh punishing Butchers, the high scoring Fish, etc... I've picked my guild (Butchers) and want to play them. But the mere assembling of the metal models (not mentioning the price tag, while not as high as other games, is still hard to justify on my budget) is a bit off putting. I've torn my hair out trying to patch up my Mage Knight models years ago, and can't see fully assembling models to be any easier. When I came in, the annoucenment came that they were moving to plastics and I was thrilled at the  possibility of getting a cheaper, pre assembled set of Butchers. But now.... I'm facing a lot of barriers to playing my favorite chosen team (unless we only settle on using paper models. But they minis look sooooo cool!) 

I also have to wonder as new players get into the  game, are we going to see tourneys filled with Brewers, Masons, Farmers and Blacksmiths, the only cheaper plastic models available to those just getting into this hobby?

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9 hours ago, ForestRambo said:

I mean I don't think it's fair to say SFG are "Alienating players" because there models are made of metal / need to be assembled. A huge range of companies produce models in metal and only Games Workshop off the top of my head make the majority in plastic and all of those companies models need to be put together.

I also don't see how they are now stuck between halfway gap? The minor guilds will be in PVC as well as new release probably.

Not sure, but you commented on some of the points I made, so I'll reply.

The major advantage (and one of SFG's stated goals) of the move to pre-assembled plastic minis is that it makes the game easier to start for new players. Someone can walk into a store with any level of miniatures game knowledge (including zero) and walk out with a team ready to play. This is incredibly powerful for attracting new players.

By having half the product line (roughly - once all the minor guilds are released, 13/22 guilds will be in plastic, but 11 of those 13 are only six minis each, so it will actually much less than half the total number of models) in pre-assembled plastic and the other half in traditional metal, the game is only half-accessible to new players. Yes, there are "new players" who already are into miniatures, but the majority of those people who might ever be interested in Guild Ball already play it (I don't have hard data on that, but I think it's a reasonable conclusion based on the apparent lack of growth in the game recently). When I talk about "new players" I predominantly mean people who are new to miniatures games in general. Guild Ball is currently only open to those people in two teams, both of which are hard to play and hard to be good at (one of them especially so).

Over the next three years, there will be eleven new teams that a new player will be able to use, but they will likely never have access to the first nine guild in the game. Eleven of the thirteen teams they have access to will always be smaller in model count (less options) and will have more team-specific gimmicks (I don't mean that in a bad way) than the original teams. Unless someone wants to dive in and become a hobbyist, they will never be able to play the Butchers or the Fish or the Engineers, etc.

The most popular miniatures game in the world (both in terms of active players and in sales) in recent years has completely abandoned the modelling aspect of the hobby - perhaps it's time other miniatures games took the hint? (Yes, I'm aware that X-Wing has a lot of pull due to its IP, but a huge number of the people who play the game because it's Star Wars wouldn't bother if they had to assemble and paint the minis.)

Just looking at the world of gaming in general, there are clearly far more people who don't want to do modelling than people that do. The pre-assembled plastic minis are a way to tap into that market, but if only half the game is available to those people, a lot of them won't want to bother.

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I wonder if they'd take a chance and just try releasing a six man PVC fish and a six man PVC butchers anyway. It doesn't sound like they would currently. But it would be good for getting new players into the game ... the iconic starter teams, who are prominent in the stories, and with "obvious" play-styles seem like a better start for someone new than more complicated teams like farmers (with all the harvest marker management).

I reckon they'd at least cover their costs (there were a fair number of people willing to buy even with a six month wait), especially if they did some promotions around it, like a limited figure, or a new fish vs butchers mat and rulebook to make it almost a premium "Kick Off 2".

It probably wouldn't be as immediately profitable as a minor guild (ratcatchers are sold out on the webstore currently). But every time you get a brand new player they could potentially buy up to 10 or 12 guilds over the longer term, so it's worth more than selling one minor guild to an existing player. But it must be a tricky decision ... they probably have to manage their cash flows carefully at the moment with a lot of expansion underway (Godtear, new offices etc.)

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14 hours ago, RedSam said:

Not sure, but you commented on some of the points I made, so I'll reply.

The major advantage (and one of SFG's stated goals) of the move to pre-assembled plastic minis is that it makes the game easier to start for new players. Someone can walk into a store with any level of miniatures game knowledge (including zero) and walk out with a team ready to play. This is incredibly powerful for attracting new players.

By having half the product line (roughly - once all the minor guilds are released, 13/22 guilds will be in plastic, but 11 of those 13 are only six minis each, so it will actually much less than half the total number of models) in pre-assembled plastic and the other half in traditional metal, the game is only half-accessible to new players. Yes, there are "new players" who already are into miniatures, but the majority of those people who might ever be interested in Guild Ball already play it (I don't have hard data on that, but I think it's a reasonable conclusion based on the apparent lack of growth in the game recently). When I talk about "new players" I predominantly mean people who are new to miniatures games in general. Guild Ball is currently only open to those people in two teams, both of which are hard to play and hard to be good at (one of them especially so).

Over the next three years, there will be eleven new teams that a new player will be able to use, but they will likely never have access to the first nine guild in the game. Eleven of the thirteen teams they have access to will always be smaller in model count (less options) and will have more team-specific gimmicks (I don't mean that in a bad way) than the original teams. Unless someone wants to dive in and become a hobbyist, they will never be able to play the Butchers or the Fish or the Engineers, etc.

The most popular miniatures game in the world (both in terms of active players and in sales) in recent years has completely abandoned the modelling aspect of the hobby - perhaps it's time other miniatures games took the hint? (Yes, I'm aware that X-Wing has a lot of pull due to its IP, but a huge number of the people who play the game because it's Star Wars wouldn't bother if they had to assemble and paint the minis.)

Just looking at the world of gaming in general, there are clearly far more people who don't want to do modelling than people that do. The pre-assembled plastic minis are a way to tap into that market, but if only half the game is available to those people, a lot of them won't want to bother.

No. Just no. 

Like Kanye said sometime ago, 'Imma let You finish but let me say...' 

Abandoning the modelling part of Guild Ball is like getting in bed with only half a girl. And You dont get to chose which half. 

Honestly, the playerbase where i live is quite healthy now, it consists of around 11 players only in my town and is currently one of the biggest in here. Competing with 9th Age when it comes to numbers only. Now if they would go and abandon the modelling part, i think only 1 or 2 of those players would stay. I believe ours is not the only case like that. We are laaughing through tears that SFG allowed unpainted plastics into tourneys, tho most of us have unpainted minis, but we strive to get them there and it is completely opposite if SFG does this. 

 

In all honesty, if they abandon the hobby part all together, i would either drop out and go play Infinity or 9th Age, or never buy a team again and play with card board cutouts. Cause if minis are unpainted and generally unattended to we may as well play with only bases with names on them. 

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15 hours ago, RedSam said:

Not sure, but you commented on some of the points I made, so I'll reply.

The major advantage (and one of SFG's stated goals) of the move to pre-assembled plastic minis is that it makes the game easier to start for new players. Someone can walk into a store with any level of miniatures game knowledge (including zero) and walk out with a team ready to play. This is incredibly powerful for attracting new players.

By having half the product line (roughly - once all the minor guilds are released, 13/22 guilds will be in plastic, but 11 of those 13 are only six minis each, so it will actually much less than half the total number of models) in pre-assembled plastic and the other half in traditional metal, the game is only half-accessible to new players. Yes, there are "new players" who already are into miniatures, but the majority of those people who might ever be interested in Guild Ball already play it (I don't have hard data on that, but I think it's a reasonable conclusion based on the apparent lack of growth in the game recently). When I talk about "new players" I predominantly mean people who are new to miniatures games in general. Guild Ball is currently only open to those people in two teams, both of which are hard to play and hard to be good at (one of them especially so).

Over the next three years, there will be eleven new teams that a new player will be able to use, but they will likely never have access to the first nine guild in the game. Eleven of the thirteen teams they have access to will always be smaller in model count (less options) and will have more team-specific gimmicks (I don't mean that in a bad way) than the original teams. Unless someone wants to dive in and become a hobbyist, they will never be able to play the Butchers or the Fish or the Engineers, etc.

The most popular miniatures game in the world (both in terms of active players and in sales) in recent years has completely abandoned the modelling aspect of the hobby - perhaps it's time other miniatures games took the hint? (Yes, I'm aware that X-Wing has a lot of pull due to its IP, but a huge number of the people who play the game because it's Star Wars wouldn't bother if they had to assemble and paint the minis.)

Just looking at the world of gaming in general, there are clearly far more people who don't want to do modelling than people that do. The pre-assembled plastic minis are a way to tap into that market, but if only half the game is available to those people, a lot of them won't want to bother.

I don’t think that’s necessarily accurate.  With Guild Ball I am brand new to tabletop miniatures gaming. I had some interest in Warhammer/40K a few years ago but never got started because the startup cost was too high. When I heard about a tabletop miniatures game I could start playing with just a $60-$75 investment, I was hooked. Even though I decided to play Brewers, I purposefully did not buy the Kick Off set because I wanted the metal models. There were two reasons for that - 1) I preferred the heft of the metal models (they just seem more premium/better quality to me than resin/PVC) and 2) In general the metal sculpts have more dynamic/interesting poses than PVC.

Yeah, as someone who is new to the genre it would have been nice to be able to open a box and start playing right away, but I’d rather sacrifice immediate playtime for cooler looking/more premium game pieces I enjoy looking at/playing with more.

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Would love both teams, would buy them in a heartbeat but I've not put anything into the IGG campaign. Should've gone through the local stores IMO. Get stores to take preorders advertising that so many preorders need to be taken globally. I am fairly certain it would've been far more successful and stores I'm sure wouldn't have had issues with handling any refunds for the chance to A: Cater to their locals and B: Getting funds from the initiative. 

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1 hour ago, 21B said:

Would love both teams, would buy them in a heartbeat but I've not put anything into the IGG campaign. Should've gone through the local stores IMO. Get stores to take preorders advertising that so many preorders need to be taken globally. I am fairly certain it would've been far more successful and stores I'm sure wouldn't have had issues with handling any refunds for the chance to A: Cater to their locals and B: Getting funds from the initiative. 

That's a nice idea, I wonder how well it would work. One of the reasons I didn't back this was due to wanting to support stores (both stores who host events within driving distance of me have started to drop off their support for Guild Ball since the move to plastics/loss of singles as they can't shift the stock), and I'd prefer to buy at most 6 players at a time so there is a less intimidating pile to paint and I can get a quick and simple team on the table, without a big hit on my bank account.

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Slightly off topic, but going back to the comment that ForestRambo made about Godtear not being for Board gamers as it's metal. Only the Early Access Playtest kits are metal, so people who signed up for it, get a chance to shall we say 'mould' the rules and abilities of the Characters. The Actual production Godtear, will be released via a Kickstarter campaign, later this year, in PVC. The metal play tester Champion sculpts are themselves limited editions, so may not be available later on.

I think the biggest issue is the number of campaigns running on both Indiego and Kickstarter for Guild Ball related stuff, and then the Early Access Kit for Godtear, all hitting at the same time. Like many on this discussion, I've pledged for both teams, then my invite for Godtear arrived and I really wanted that too, so again I've paid for that, so I've already forked out $370-490 (Depending on which Additional Godtear models you buy). And then on Kickstart BrokenToad launch resin goal posts and terrain, which look great, but I've got no spare cash to get any of them, I've already stretched my meager monthly budget for minis, by a very long way.

It should have been spaced out better, I'd have got the Godtear Early Access out first as that is still in the Player Test/Development stage, the one of the PVC teams say 1 month or 6 weeks later and the last PVC team another 1 month or 6 weeks after that.

The BrokenToad stuff is out of SFG control, but at least it would have made it easier for people to pledge their Support for SFG on the various 'new' releases. Cause don't forget, there's the Ratcatchers heading out soon as well.    

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