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Furnace

How to Shark like a pro?

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2 hours ago, Frankanelli said:

On sort of another note, Shark's strength as a min/max style player means that he does have some harder counters. I wouldn't recommend playing him into Morticians, Hunters, or Engineers. If your two main opponents are Theron and Obulus you aren't getting a well rounded view of how Shark works. 

I have read, never Shark into Morts,  just don't do it. I've played him into Hunters and that was  nightmare. Not many engineer players around, but duly noted.

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56 minutes ago, Ragnar Rok said:

I have read, never Shark into Morts,  just don't do it. I've played him into Hunters and that was  nightmare. Not many engineer players around, but duly noted.

A good Obulus player will leverage his Legendary and Puppet Master to basically keep Shark from participating in the game. His speed is used against him and he struggles to have any MP at all. 2" unpredictable makes things tough. Silence can also stop goal runs with some reliability. And Morts rely on a bursty sort of dmg, (as opposed to attrition) and Shark's team is susceptible to a player being blown up sometimes.  

Ballista has access to Deadbolt which is miserable for Shark. He also has the tools to hold onto the ball better than most and his legendary used right is a goal.  His team can also leverage its INF without needing to be in melee which means that Caught In a Net is less effective than usual. 

Theron also has the ranged character plays to make Shark struggle. He's the least of a lock against Shark though. His plays throw less dice than Obulus and he has to spend resources to generate MP unlike Ballista.  The plays are effective when they hit though as I'm sure you've seen. Shark has the playbook dodges and plays to still make a game of it, but its a still pretty tight. 

Basically Shark's strength is his ability to play his game despite what your opponents do. He doesn't have the ability to pivot like he would need to when he finds his hard counter.  And even though Shark does have his struggles, basically everyone hates him and a good legendary turn, so don't think you are only on the receiving end of that feeling. 

The good news with Obulus and Theron is that Corsair is happy to take them on. It's not a huge blow to the strength of Fish as a guild that these Shark matchups exist because Corsair covers him so well.

Ballista is just tough all around. I think the answer there is a goal focused Corsair team, but it's always a grindfest and not a matchup I love. 

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7 minutes ago, Frankanelli said:

 

Basically Shark's strength is his ability to play his game despite what your opponents do. He doesn't have the ability to pivot like he would need to when he finds his hard counter.  And even though Shark does have his struggles, basically everyone hates him and a good legendary turn, so don't think you are only on the receiving end of that feeling. 

This! Very well said

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I actually think Shark can work ok into Ballista. It's definitely not an easy match up, but with Lure and Tidal Surge, a Shark team can drag Ballista away from his team, at which point he's going to give away tons of momentum. If you bring A&G into the match up, Ballista is going to go down extremely fast if he's pulled in.

As for the Theron match up, he's one of the primary reasons I bring Angel. If you receive against Theron, he pretty much has to choose between either Angel or Shark to slow down. If he runs up for enough to control both, then he's almost certainly overextended and you can punish that with a Lure before farming him for momentum and maybe even a gradual take out.

I have no idea how to run Shark into Obulus :D That just doesn't seem fun. My thought would be kicking off with Shark and challenging the Morticians to hide the ball well enough while also setting his own team up well enough. But a much easier thought would be to just run Corsair. Morticians are not a hardy group for the most part and are super susceptible to the Fish death ball.

But if you're trying to establish a Shark gameplan without Union, the build of Shark, Salt, Greyscales, Hag, Sakana, and oSiren (mentioned in an early post) is incredibly strong. It's important to remember that this is an early game focused team that wants to score 2 early goals so that the enemy team can never play their game. If you have those first two goals, it become incredibly difficult for any team out there to kill the ball in a single activation. By forcing your opponent to constantly choose between working towards 12 points and defending the ball, you're giving yourself time to keep pursuing that last goal. The third goal is rarely easy, but you have to remember that getting 4-6 takeouts before the Fish can score a single goal is no easy task either.

 

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You guys both missed Kraken. I said Kraken, right? Please don't overlook him. He has weaknesses for sure but what he brings to to lineup is important. I could go into more detail but really there is no amount of forum posting that can trump just trying a thing out for yourself.

I usually play Shark, Tentacles, oSiren, Hag, Kraken and A&G. Just remember that you are not fighting toe-to-toe. You are using your tools (Shark's LP, Lure, Drag) to isolate players, take them out and win initiative.

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Well if you could elaborate a bit as to why Kraken instead of not to Kraken. Because I've tried Kraken and all he did was give my opponent all the momentum in the world. :D

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This may seem pretty obvious but...

One of my toughest learning curves with Shark, especially against teams that want to go 2-2, was learning that it's fine to let the other team score.  I often lost players trying to "play defense."  If you're playing defense, you're probably getting hit.  As you've observed, you really, really don't want that.  So as long as it won't close out the game, let them have their four points.  Once they do, you get the ball back!

Sometimes I'll even try to 'force' my opponent to score- if the only place they can hide the ball is the center of the pitch or down towards my goal (because I have people pressuring their corners), the sight of an open goal marker will often get the better of people and they'll take the shot- they can't help themselves!

If they fall for it, it's all over (assuming you've gotten your first two goals)- kick it out, get it to the captain (or belt it upfield to Angel for a snap shot if you're feeling cheeky), and it's goodnight.

If they don't, my best advice is to make sure you pressure the ball relentlessly and flee from their players otherwise.  Any activation they spend scurrying away from your ball chasers (who are really good at their jobs) or chasing your (much faster in most cases) players is less damage to you.

Against Hunters, I sometimes use one or two players to charge in and hit a bunch of momentous dodges so you can clear snared when you need to.  Don't do this against anyone who's going to kill you in return, though. =)

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43 minutes ago, Furnace said:

Well if you could elaborate a bit as to why Kraken instead of not to Kraken. Because I've tried Kraken and all he did was give my opponent all the momentum in the world. :D

Drag, KD on a 2" melee (important for locking your opponents in) and the most efficient damage to inf ratio of non captain Fish players.

He should only be giving away that kind of momentum if you throw him into the enemy team. He should be fine just sitting in your libes threatening the drag.

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18 hours ago, Frankanelli said:

 Basically Shark's strength is his ability to play his game despite what your opponents do. He doesn't have the ability to pivot like he would need to when he finds his hard counter.  And even though Shark does have his struggles, basically everyone hates him and a good legendary turn, so don't think you are only on the receiving end of that feeling. 

 

Great write up

 

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My problem with Krakens damage to inf ratio is that that damage is worthless in Shark unless you plan to go 2-2. Also I see his inf cost for everything as being 1 higher, since he brings 1 less to the team than any other choice

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I think people are looking to pair Kraken with A&G. It means you have something to do when Shark is not chasing the ball and it's a great way to fill the activation's so your last 1-2 can be to move Shark / Greyscales into a place where they can get the ball next turn. 

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It was a poor choice of words, I mean to fill the activation's up so the players you want to attack the ball can activate later in the turn  to be in a meaningful position to attack the ball.  It also gives you a out at playing 2/2 with Kraken & A&G and not always a 3/0 game. 

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6 hours ago, kaladorm said:

Shark is never not chasing the ball except when waiting for an icy sponge ;)

LMAO...I thought I was the only one that played Shark this way.

 

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On 1/30/2018 at 7:37 AM, Marbles said:

You guys both missed Kraken. I said Kraken, right? Please don't overlook him. He has weaknesses for sure but what he brings to to lineup is important. I could go into more detail but really there is no amount of forum posting that can trump just trying a thing out for yourself.

I will not discourage anyone from trying something themselves, but Kraken is basically useless.... You're going to have to explain to me what he's supposed to do. Because he doesn't make enough resources, his playbook is very meh, and he's just begging to be farmed off.  I see the use of Kraken, Jac, and Siren to basically lock half the board down, but I don't think it's stronger than being a team of aggressive fast moving pieces. 

I think SFG is learning that there has to be a really good reason for you to generate 1 inf or less. Balancing that has been tough and when a change comes to Kraken (I'm thinking Kraken and Siren2 will be our duals with the minor guild and get updates) I hope they just decide he's not a candidate for being a 1/3. Sort of like Kat1. 

On 1/30/2018 at 4:52 AM, Penguin Warrior said:

I actually think Shark can work ok into Ballista. It's definitely not an easy match up, but with Lure and Tidal Surge, a Shark team can drag Ballista away from his team, at which point he's going to give away tons of momentum. If you bring A&G into the match up, Ballista is going to go down extremely fast if he's pulled in.

I mean if the goal is to isolate Ballista and beat him up, then I already have a captain for that. Who also brings some tech against deadbolt. And momentous dmg. And a way around the close control that engineers as a guild have a bunch of. I'm not saying its bad plan, and if you find yourself in this situation then it might be the only answer. But it just seems like Corsair is better equipped. 

On 1/30/2018 at 4:52 AM, Penguin Warrior said:

But if you're trying to establish a Shark gameplan without Union, the build of Shark, Salt, Greyscales, Hag, Sakana, and oSiren (mentioned in an early post) is incredibly strong. It's important to remember that this is an early game focused team that wants to score 2 early goals so that the enemy team can never play their game. If you have those first two goals, it become incredibly difficult for any team out there to kill the ball in a single activation. By forcing your opponent to constantly choose between working towards 12 points and defending the ball, you're giving yourself time to keep pursuing that last goal. The third goal is rarely easy, but you have to remember that getting 4-6 takeouts before the Fish can score a single goal is no easy task either.

This is my prefered method of Shark. Except take tentacles cause he's an actual god in cephalopod form. Shark can score in super janky ways. So put the fear of those crazy goals into your enemy and leverage that. You'll know you're doing it right when your opponents start defending against phantom goal runs you cant even actually pull off. 

 

On 1/30/2018 at 10:07 AM, Fish-in-a-Beer said:

Sometimes I'll even try to 'force' my opponent to score- if the only place they can hide the ball is the center of the pitch or down towards my goal (because I have people pressuring their corners), the sight of an open goal marker will often get the better of people and they'll take the shot- they can't help themselves!

I've said a ton in this thread cause I've been loving Shark lately but I can't believe I forgot to say this!  I've said you get to 8 first because your opponent basically can't score except to win, and conversely, if your opponent does score, its almost always fine for you. 

It's really interesting when you start to look at the game this way, but basically, Shark wants the ball to be live as much as possible. He doesn't really care who it's live for... He's the BEST at scoring goals. As long as the ball is available to interact with as a resource, he's not out of the game. If your opponent keeps the ball somewhere to make a goal run, you can take it from him.  If your opponent takes the goal run, you just get the ball (with some exceptions based on timing and positioning), meaning you don't have to spend the resources to take it back.  And lots of people on your roster are able to score with the immediate activation after your goal kick. 

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22 hours ago, Frankanelli said:

I will not discourage anyone from trying something themselves, but Kraken is basically useless.... You're going to have to explain to me what he's supposed to do. Because he doesn't make enough resources, his playbook is very meh, and he's just begging to be farmed off. 

I explained a little above. Kraken has Drag, which is massively powerful. He also does reasonable damage and has really easy KD on a 2" melee. This is a very strong combination for locking down enemy models, especially ones with a 1" melee. I don't really see how anyone could look a Drag and his playbook and not see something useful. And remember I suggested playing Kraken along side A&G, you should play them as a pair. A&G are very good when set up and Kraken sets them up.

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It's just that there's a big game changer coming up when A&G is lost, so for some reason I don't want to learn the A&G crutch which seems to be as much with both Corsair and Shark. I wonder what will happen once A&G is lost. 

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3 hours ago, Furnace said:

It's just that there's a big game changer coming up when A&G is lost, so for some reason I don't want to learn the A&G crutch which seems to be as much with both Corsair and Shark. I wonder what will happen once A&G is lost. 

Then there will be two minor guild players to utilise. The game evolves and won't ever stop evolving. I wouldn't let that stop you from learning to play the game as it stands. Learn your guild, observe the changes, adapt.

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I agree - maybe play some with A+G and some without, so you get a feel for the team and what he does for them? Then you’ll be able to adapt when he does get removed.

But since the rats are out in March/April, then there’s been previews of the falconers and solthecians, it could easily be the end of the year before the fish get their minor :)

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When I run Corsair instead of Shark I do something like:  Corsair, Tentacles, Sakana, Greyscales, oSiren, and then a Flex.  I don't typically put in A&G.  I still play the score game with Corsair and just use oSiren to help him get the ball off any team trying to hide it and use Sakana and Greyscales for the score.  I've tried to use and like Kraken, but the dude just fails me every time. 

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On 03/02/2018 at 12:34 AM, GoonieLaw said:

When I run Corsair instead of Shark I do something like:  Corsair, Tentacles, Sakana, Greyscales, oSiren, and then a Flex.  I don't typically put in A&G.  I still play the score game with Corsair and just use oSiren to help him get the ball off any team trying to hide it and use Sakana and Greyscales for the score.  I've tried to use and like Kraken, but the dude just fails me every time. 

How is the Corsair scoring game worked out for you? Do you miss Shark in those games? 

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Sure I miss Shark...that dude is incredible.  However, my use of Corsair is when I think the other team may try and kill the ball and trying to get it back may be a bit more painful than Shark can stand.  Try hiding the ball against Corsair and oSiren...it's not that easy. 

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5 hours ago, GoonieLaw said:

Sure I miss Shark...that dude is incredible.  However, my use of Corsair is when I think the other team may try and kill the ball and trying to get it back may be a bit more painful than Shark can stand.  Try hiding the ball against Corsair and oSiren...it's not that easy. 

How to Shark like a pro is to play Corsair instead? Fair enough. 

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