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Losing friends from the tournament circuit due to "NPEs"

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1 hour ago, FourOfPipes said:

In addition, it seems like Guild Ball is dominated by low probability, high impact events. It doesn't cost anything to try for the upper level playbook results, and when they happen they're huge. Someone attacks Obulus, I counter attack. He asks if Obulus has a knockdown. I say, "I guess? On the four." So he hits his attack, does  some damage and dodges in closer to beat Obulus's double dodge, and then I crank the roll and get 4 net hits vs a 4/1 model, knocking it down. We both just look at the dice and shrug. I guess I'm winning this game through no fault of my own. I see an extremely high level of dice complaining on this (and other guild ball) forums. I wonder how much of that is down to the fundamental mechanics of the game having a high degree of randomness (see: scoring goals, kick scatters, playbooks, etc).

I don't intend to invalidate your feelings on the game here, but your example situation isn't really the whole story. A player can spend momentum to clear conditions on themselves if they haven't already done so or healed themselves on their own activation, so if Obulus gets that 3.1% knockdown counterattack, in most cases all he's done is spend one momentum to make his opponent spend one momentum. It's barely an impact on the game at all most of the times that roll goes off. Obulus is, no question, one of the most difficult models in the game to pin down and attack, and for your opponents I'd recommend just avoiding attacking him until they feel more confident in larger strategies to bait and kill him, but the KD result he has has almost nothing to do with how slippery he is. 

I'd also disagree that GB necessarily lends itself to sloppy play, but that's mostly down to my personal experience, and most of the people in this thread talking about sloppy play issues are people playing in communities I'm not a part of, so I wouldn't be surprised if their experiences and interpretation of social contracts differ. I DO agree though that the high level of counterplay and call-and-response play in Guild Ball, which I consider one of its best design strengths, also lends itself to aggressive clock clicking unfortunately. 

Just thoughts. I'd stick to it for a bit longer if your main issue with the game is being screwed over by dice. Most things in the game have lots of counterplay options both at macro/strategical and a micro/tactical levels. :)

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@Slothrop

I appreciate the thorough response. Like I said, I'm very new and I've played enough of these kind of games to know that my opinion is not going to be well-formed. There was an idea of writing articles for new players, and I think all of the points I raised can be, if not debunked, at least explained by more veteran players.

In that particular example, the opponent opted for a non-momentous result because he didn't think Obulus would knock him down. And then that 3.1% got him, and it's game over. That's what I'm talking about with low probability, high impact results. You don't miss bonus timed, tap in goals very often, but when you do it can easily lose you the game. And 3.1% isn't actually that rare, if you consider the number of dice rolled in a game. I think that's where the dice frustration comes from.

But you could imagine putting this into a new player guide:

When you attack, if your opponent has momentum, they will probably counter attack. Look at their playbook.

Do they have a push? If they can push you out of melee, assume you'll only get one attack.

Do they have a dodge? If they can dodge out of melee, assume you'll only get one attack.

Do they have a knockdown? If you can take a momentus result, do so. You'll be able to stand up if they knock you down, etc. 

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@FourOfPipes

One of the single hardest thing in the game is mastering the counter-attack. In your example (Hard with Obulus I know) you get a single Crowd Out and now that Knockdown isn't a possibility, assuming you have one armour. 

They have a double dodge/push that's easily accessible and you're not 2" Melee either stay out of their Melee or get base to base. 

Despite playing against Brewers more often than any other team, I constantly forget Stoker has a double push on 1.

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@FourOfPipes yeah actions that interupt my opponents activation should be on my clock, although it's often forgotten and can reach the point of absurdness with clock flipping after every attack. Personally, if an opponent takes longer to decide on a counter than it takes to say "umm" then it's on their clock. If they already have a clear decision, then I'm not flipping while thry declare their choice, that would be petty imo. 

And yeah Counter Attacks can completely swing a game. After a while you get to know which models won't end your turn, and which ones will. But even those with dangerous counters can be mitigated once you know who to watch for - e.g. Stoker has a double push on one, so either hit him with a 2" model in b2b, or drain his MP and hit him with whoever you want. 

Interesting to hear your viewpoint though, been playing a while now and forgotten about all those early frustrations. 

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@FourOfPipes  Obulus has a double dodge on 2 hits, so unless you can get base to base with a 2" melee model there is a good chance he'll just dodge off on the counter attack. It is also the design of the model: Obulus is a slippery guy with unpredictable movement and a good counter attack. To counter that he only has 14 HP, making him on of the more easy to kill captains once you do get your hands on him.

Whilst newer players usually think KD is a great counter attack result, it usually isn't because you can clear it with momentum. 

The whole counter attack business becomes second nature after a while. Yes sometimes a spike will ruin your day. But there are ways to manage it to an acceptable level.

Concerning clock etiquette:  I just flip the clock over myself if I want to think about declaring a counter attack, def stance or counter charge. 

Edit: reading stuff is a thing.

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11 hours ago, FourOfPipes said:

But you could imagine putting this into a new player guide:

When you attack, if your opponent has momentum, they will probably counter attack. Look at their playbook.

Do they have a push? If they can push you out of melee, assume you'll only get one attack.

Do they have a dodge? If they can dodge out of melee, assume you'll only get one attack.

Do they have a knockdown? If you can take a momentus result, do so. You'll be able to stand up if they knock you down, etc. 

http://midwestwargaming.com/guildball-new-guys-knowing-enough-team-get-activation/

and

http://midwestwargaming.com/guildball-new-guys-surviving-opponents-next-activation/

are very good articles for that.

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12 hours ago, FourOfPipes said:

So he hits his attack, does  some damage and dodges in closer to beat Obulus's double dodge, and then I crank the roll and get 4 net hits vs a 4/1 model, knocking it down. We both just look at the dice and shrug. I guess I'm winning this game through no fault of my own.

Isn't that the purpose of any game involving dice? Failing or succeeding on an impossible throw adds to the epic stories of gaming. There are games like Go or Check that depend solely on skill level but for me they don't add to the fun factor of gaming, neither do they add to realism. If you study historical battles, you will find that the same kind of randomness is inseparably connected to the outcome. 

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14 hours ago, alopex said:

Isn't that the purpose of any game involving dice? Failing or succeeding on an impossible throw adds to the epic stories of gaming. There are games like Go or Check that depend solely on skill level but for me they don't add to the fun factor of gaming, neither do they add to realism. If you study historical battles, you will find that the same kind of randomness is inseparably connected to the outcome. 

It depends entirely on whether you want to play a particular game competitively or not! Randomness is the enemy of competitive play, but does add a lot to casual relaxed games. 

Guild Ball is a dice game though, so sure, expect the dice to occasionally do random things. Imo Guild Ball does offer enough ways for a player to influence the odds - I can't think of many games that were entirely one or lost on a series of extreme dice spikes, although they obviously can swing a game severely, it not normally to the point that an evenly matched opponent has no chance of return. All of this takes experience though, I can understand how new players would struggle in all of this.

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I'm surprised there is dice frustration at all, if you have played almost any other table top games involving dice.

Guild Ball does a great job of controlling exploding dice, and reigning in really ridiculous odds rolls. In this game, if you attack, and get all hits, yes, the result you are going to get is good, as one would expect. But the result is controlled by having to choose a contained result. In other games, if you spike dice (let's say you roll 4-5 dice and they all come up 6s... That is an improbable roll, but could easily be game-deciding single rolls. (Ie: Warmachine, probably an instant caster/jack kill, Warhammer lead to mortal wounds or 24-30 wounds from lascannons, Walking Dead (I know they are special dice, but their equivalent) instant player kill...)

In this game, if you get that same result, you go from 2 or 3 damage to 3-5 damage most of the time. You certainly did better, but it's dialed down.

Yes, I can see why a new player may be upset if they had a fully-loaded captain go in and then get double-pushed out with s counter attack. But that is part of learning about Target section and what models you use to deal with that. It's not NPE. It's a very short part of learning the game. It's like playing hockey and then you get knocked down and feeling upset because you didn't know you were allowed to body check. But once you understand it's part of the game, you start to learn to play with that in mind.

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1 hour ago, the_aY said:

I'm surprised there is dice frustration at all, if you have played almost any other table top games involving dice.

Guild Ball does a great job of controlling exploding dice, and reigning in really ridiculous odds rolls. In this game, if you attack, and get all hits, yes, the result you are going to get is good, as one would expect. But the result is controlled by having to choose a contained result. In other games, if you spike dice (let's say you roll 4-5 dice and they all come up 6s... That is an improbable roll, but could easily be game-deciding single rolls. (Ie: Warmachine, probably an instant caster/jack kill, Warhammer lead to mortal wounds or 24-30 wounds from lascannons, Walking Dead (I know they are special dice, but their equivalent) instant player kill...)

In this game, if you get that same result, you go from 2 or 3 damage to 3-5 damage most of the time. You certainly did better, but it's dialed down.

Yes, I can see why a new player may be upset if they had a fully-loaded captain go in and then get double-pushed out with s counter attack. But that is part of learning about Target section and what models you use to deal with that. It's not NPE. It's a very short part of learning the game. It's like playing hockey and then you get knocked down and feeling upset because you didn't know you were allowed to body check. But once you understand it's part of the game, you start to learn to play with that in mind.

You've never rolled as badly as me or a friend of mine :P in comparison to this other guy...

For instance if we both have 8 dice and I need a 3+ and he needs a 5+ he would probably have more successes than me :( I kid you not :P 

Also it depends on the Guild you are playing I find Fish have the most reliable playbook at the moment.

 

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2 hours ago, The_Question_NL said:

 

For instance if we both have 8 dice and I need a 3+ and he needs a 5+ he would probably have more successes than me :( I kid you not :P 

 

Both of you keep rolling the eight dice for another 24 hours, keeping track of the results, then report back to me who has the most successes. Thanks.

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5 hours ago, Selfy said:

Both of you keep rolling the eight dice for another 24 hours, keeping track of the results, then report back to me who has the most successes. Thanks.

As someone who also suffers from bad dice, I don't dispute that the rolls balance out. It's WHEN the fluffed roll happens is the crucial bit. Ok, so his 5 dice attack bounced off Hoist, no drama, but me missing a 5 dice shot on goal has more of an impact on the game :P

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Meh. My worst roll ever was against a knocked down Brick with VRage.

Me rolling 15 dice with crowd out and other penalties. I came out with 1 success. I always just accept that its a dice game.

Sure as hell flabbergasted, but not ruining the game for me. 

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14 hours ago, Selfy said:

Both of you keep rolling the eight dice for another 24 hours, keeping track of the results, then report back to me who has the most successes. Thanks.

we actually did this for like 10 rolls :P he won 4-6 :(
But I get what you are saying on the average part of it.
 

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22 hours ago, the_aY said:

I'm surprised there is dice frustration at all, if you have played almost any other table top games involving dice.

I think that part of it is that the skill factor in the game is so high so that when you truly do lose to dice, you feel more cheated than in a more random game like 40k or whatever.

And I don't think that the argument that a 4.3% chance of a freak KO making your Captain waste a ton of Influence is bad play on your part is very strong. If you manage to win a game without ever taking even a small chance of dice failing you, you're a pretty godlike/your opponent is a bag of potatoes. For example, you could never try to shoot a goal. Yes, you can mitigate all that stuff but sometimes your best bet ("correct play") is to take a small risk of failure and sometimes that small risk materializes into failure. Nothing weird about that being frustrating, I think.

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4 hours ago, Lemminkäinen said:

I think that part of it is that the skill factor in the game is so high so that when you truly do lose to dice, you feel more cheated than in a more random game like 40k or whatever.

And I don't think that the argument that a 4.3% chance of a freak KO making your Captain waste a ton of Influence is bad play on your part is very strong. If you manage to win a game without ever taking even a small chance of dice failing you, you're a pretty godlike/your opponent is a bag of potatoes. For example, you could never try to shoot a goal. Yes, you can mitigate all that stuff but sometimes your best bet ("correct play") is to take a small risk of failure and sometimes that small risk materializes into failure. Nothing weird about that being frustrating, I think.

Yes but even in less random games like WMH there is a higher dice factor than GB. No dice game will be without that chance of frustration. 

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7 hours ago, HuggyTheBear said:

Yes but even in less random games like WMH there is a higher dice factor than GB. No dice game will be without that chance of frustration. 

But do you think that WMH has a higher skill factor than GB? Especially if you discount list building and knowledge (since those aren't affected by dice and happen separately)? My hypothesis is that since the skill factor is so high, the dice spikes are especially annoying (which could be seen as a bit backwards).

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On 16-2-2018 at 1:32 PM, Lemminkäinen said:

But do you think that WMH has a higher skill factor than GB? Especially if you discount list building and knowledge (since those aren't affected by dice and happen separately)? My hypothesis is that since the skill factor is so high, the dice spikes are especially annoying (which could be seen as a bit backwards).

Well I'm fairly certain that you can discard list building since a large majority of the players just plays netlists (myself included), except the few people who think outside of the box or design the netlists.
Knowledge is a huge part of the game, and you see that the people that mostly score good in tournaments are the people with the most experience and knowledge, consistency is key ofc. There is ofc way more knowledge in WMH cause the game is huge. But there's a lot more interaction in Guildball between the models, so I'm not sure how that compares.
But the biggest difference imho is that you could lose a WMH game in one/a few diceroll(s) if your opponent got a lucky caster kill, ofc it shouldn't happen, but it can still happen. You have to have a lot more bad luck in Guildball and you could technically still make a comeback after a streak of bad luck with some good play and dice. But that's just my 2 cents.

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On 16-2-2018 at 1:32 PM, Lemminkäinen said:

But do you think that WMH has a higher skill factor than GB? Especially if you discount list building and knowledge (since those aren't affected by dice and happen separately)? My hypothesis is that since the skill factor is so high, the dice spikes are especially annoying (which could be seen as a bit backwards).

It is different I think. GB is a lot more tit for tat. So it is easier to get advantages by out playing your opponent. That being said, in WMH the advantages seem more definite. In GB you still have to play to a decent level until the end.

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