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mr baron

Pin Vice v Farmers/Thresher

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Last night was my first time playing Pin Vice.  I had previously played Ballista and was looking forward to try Pin Vice.  My buddy asked if I wanted to try her into Thresher, and I agreed knowing full well what the Thresher team was about.  I had played against Thresher twice before and in both games about mid-way through the games starts to fall a part.  Once Thresher pops his legendary, both he and Tater can just rip through teams.  Without a doubt, The Thresher team is a tough one to play against.

My list:  Pin Vice, Mother, Hoist, Ratchet, Locus, Velocity

Farmers:  Thresher, Buckwheat, Jackstraw, Millstone, Tater, Harrow

I lose the dice off and my buddy elects to receive.  My turn 1 plan was to play conservatively and try to get AOE damage on Thresher & Tater before moving in my team into the scrum.  

Turn 1 - I kick off with Mother, and Jackstraw recovers the ball.  He passes it around to create some momentum.  I drop 3 AOEs on Thresher/Tater and we both do some damage to each other as he moves Thresher & Tater into engage me.  The threat ranges on Thresher and Tater with the Millstone bump means that they can be well on my side of the pitch.  

0-0

Turn 2 - I load up Pin Vice and knock out Thresher, Tater & Harrow, while he takes out Mother and Locus.  

6-3 Engineers

Turn 3 - He brings Thresher & Tater back from the side and they can immediate enter back into the scrum.  He pops his legendary, and takes out Pin Vice, Hoist, and Ratchet, while I take out Tater again.

9-8 Farmers

Turn 4 - Unfortunately, he has the momentum and he gets to go first.  Thresher has a clear run at goal which he makes, otherwise I would be able to get the ball and score.

12-8 Farmers win.

Turn 3 was brutal as Thresher's legendary accelerates his damage output as well as provides healing.  As we debriefed the game, there was a spot in turn 3 where I could have tackled the ball and tried to get it over to Velocity rather then trying to take out Tater.  That may have made a difference.  I do agree that in this match up, Engineers need to get the ball at some point to get a goal.  The Farmers can soak up a lot of damage and have access to good healing. 

All in all, it was a good game.  I really liked Pin Vice and I think she has good game into Farmers.  One of the areas that I need to work on is how to get the ball back from the Farmers, especially if he is hiding it behind Thresher/Tater.  I also want to think more about my kick off options.  I want to put goal pressure on his team, but I do not want to give my opponent free points.   Definitely looking forward to more games with Pin Vice.

 

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Do you have a strategy to get Pinvice into Thresher?  I've never managed to get her in on Thresher without taking a counter charge from Tater, which then leaves her either pushed out if I couldn't make base to base, knocked down, or crowded out (or some combination of those). 

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Its a good question, as Tater's counter charge with the knockdown on 3 is brutal.  My buddy typically activates Thresher & Tater in back to back activations, and they will end up in the middle of the field, so my plan was based around the following:

- Charge Tater and eliminate him first

- Engage Tater to prevent the counter charge

- Get Tater to counter charge a different model

- Turn 1 AOE damage & rough terrain with Blast Earth.  

In this game, in turn 1, I moved Pin Vice last and was able to get into the scrum without getting counter charged.  In subsequent turns, Pin Vice was either already engaged by Tater/Thresher or I was able to maneuver in a way to avoid the counter charge.  My thought was that if I could get AOEs onto Thresher & Tater then Pin Vice would have a better chance of knocking them out.  For the most part the strategy worked for turns 1 & 2.

As I look at my line up, I am wondering if Compound would be a better choice over Locus in order to threaten the Farmers with his Counter Charge.  I took Locus to specifically counter Thresher's and Tater's 2" melee and to provide another range play.

 

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The issue I see with locus into farmers specifically is that he needs to defensive stance the charge as well as counter to be useful, otherwise he's just a weaker hoist with a ranged push. Compound sounds nice in theory but in my limited experience thresher can work around his cc bubble. 3 inch melee makes that 6 inch cc bubble feel much smaller than it is sadly. That being said he probably is still better than locus in the matchup

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19 hours ago, mr baron said:

If we drop Locus, what model is our best alternative?  Is it Compound or is there a better choice?

Farmers don't need to play ball, so you don't need a goalkeeper. But he dies easily to Thresher & Tater. Gluttonous Mass is no protection and once you die you won't rejoin the battle anytime soon with you 4/6" MOV.

I'd take Colossus or Harry.

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23 hours ago, ForestRambo said:

Compound is pretty legit as Thresher 0 good ways of playing around it. 

Thresher hates wasting influence. So I agree Compound looks pretty legit.

Also, his countercharge is pretty great 

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How did you manage to do so much damage in turn 2 to get 3 farmers knocked out?  I'm new to playing Pin Vice and damage output (especially without Colossus to set up) for me has been very inconsistent.

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I had banged up a number of his models on turn 1 and then focus on knocking out Thresher and Tater on turn 2.  My thinking was that if I hit Thresher & Tater with AOEs in round 1 (8 dam on each model), I will be in good shape to get knockouts in turn 1 & 2.  Pin Vice was also able to do some work on Turn 1 as he moved into me, and I moved her near the end of the turn after he had committed both Thresher and Tater.

With Pin Vice, if you load her up with Tooled up and Deletion she can put out a lot of damage.  Against Farmers (DEF 4, no ARM) , she should be able to consistently hit 4 points of damage a swing (2+1+1).  On 5 swings, that is 20 points on average.  Even if you terrible rolls, you should still be able to get 15 dam.  If get you extra buffs the damage output goes up significantly. 

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I am planning to try out Pin Vice as well, purely for the speed and raw damage output turn one from range. 

However, taking out Tater at def 5 feels like a real challenge. 

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You put Ratchet on Tater and Pin Vice on Thresher.  Ratchet can get some good work done against Tater especially if you landed some AOE's on him earlier in the game.

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So I lost the game 11-12. Both getting clocked out, but a tater charge took out my velocity. If I had not derped out and healed Velocity, I would have gone to 12 on his clock. 

Notes from the game:

Pin Vice has some insane goal pressure. Thresher struggled to keep the ball away from Pin Vice, Velocity and Hoist. Compound did not do that much, so Im considering Colossus instead. 

Overall, best game against thresher so far. I gave up getting Tater and Thresher taken out. I never had iniative, so I had to hide Pin Vice, and without her we dont do any damage at all. 

All ranged damage I did was healed bu the end of turn two by Harrow aura and momentum healing. 

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I think it does.  If Farmers get the ball first, they can gain momentum to work around the Blast Earth.  Without momentum, they are going to take two turns of ranged AOEs and the Engineers will be able to set the Tempo.

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9 hours ago, mr baron said:

I think it does.  If Farmers get the ball first, they can gain momentum to work around the Blast Earth.  Without momentum, they are going to take two turns of ranged AOEs and the Engineers will be able to set the Tempo.

Yes. And Thresher with the pass dodge has insane threat

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On 1/6/2018 at 3:38 AM, dire_kobold said:

Do you have a strategy to get Pinvice into Thresher?  I've never managed to get her in on Thresher without taking a counter charge from Tater, which then leaves her either pushed out if I couldn't make base to base, knocked down, or crowded out (or some combination of those). 

It shouldn't really be that hard. You have an 11' charge if you want it, which is his total threat range. IE, if he can hit you, you can b2b him. 

You can also defensive stance against Tater, can't you? Makes him need 2 6's to push you off if you do miss out.

PV is GREAT against Thresher. If you have the ball (the dreaded Thresher kick off) you can deploy her a bit back if you want (16.1 inches from Thresher) and kick the ball around a bit for momentum, then give her an overclocked from Ratchet. A fully loaded PV with Overclocked up is terrifying for Thresher. If you kick a few passes and lob some bombs you can either try to win momentum and make him go first T2, or alternatively, finish off by kicking to PV, dodge into range, then make him either hit you (defensive stance to save you hopefully), or you hit him if he waits for Thresher to go last. Deletion, alternator Pinvice with Overclocked hurts Thresher BADLY. If you manage a tooled up as well...curtains.

 

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9 hours ago, Horeath said:

It shouldn't really be that hard. You have an 11' charge if you want it, which is his total threat range. IE, if he can hit you, you can b2b him. 

You can also defensive stance against Tater, can't you? Makes him need 2 6's to push you off if you do miss out.

PV is GREAT against Thresher. If you have the ball (the dreaded Thresher kick off) you can deploy her a bit back if you want (16.1 inches from Thresher) and kick the ball around a bit for momentum, then give her an overclocked from Ratchet. A fully loaded PV with Overclocked up is terrifying for Thresher. If you kick a few passes and lob some bombs you can either try to win momentum and make him go first T2, or alternatively, finish off by kicking to PV, dodge into range, then make him either hit you (defensive stance to save you hopefully), or you hit him if he waits for Thresher to go last. Deletion, alternator Pinvice with Overclocked hurts Thresher BADLY. If you manage a tooled up as well...curtains.

 

Sounds great in theory.  My concerns are:

The overclocked/def. stance requires you to have the ball.  With out that, good luck getting the momentum without feeding a model. (My experience is the farmer's run a tight delta formation, with Thresher taking point, Tater/Harrow/Millstone behind, with Peck and Jackstraw floating around in the back providing harvest markers and standing folks up as needed.  Hoist/Mother burrowing ball runs have been my best method to get deep enough to cause issues, but that's not an uncommon play anyway.)

Pin Vice has 5 attacks to take out Thresher (6 influence - 2 (deletion/alternator) + 1 charge (overclocked)).  I've found that a tater countercharge/Thresher counter attack combo is the most common response to this setup.  Now both would have to hit, and while def. stance does make it worse for Tater, but 10 dice makes the chances 51.5% (as calculated by GB Manager) and then Thresher's push has a 76.7% chance of hitting.  Having his legendary up would make it more in the farmer's favor, so taking him out then is rough. 

Now that we've got Pin Vice in, her chances of hitting the 2 damage on 3 is 91% on the charge at 9 dice, then 50% on the next 4.  Those results (with tooled up and deletion) will take out Thresher from full.  Still a lot of room for dice to happen, and this is almost all influence in on killing one model (6 on PV, 1 for Tool up, 1-2 for passes/momentous results to generate needed momentum) leaving the rest of the team to run on 4-5 influence (which could be used to put damage on Thresher from range, which boosts the chances of killing him pretty significantly.  And this all leaves PV taking a ton of self-damage from her buffs.

Now I don't disagree that this is our most offensive threat to counter Thresher, I just want to stress it's not without considerable risk.  (Not that it has stopped me from trying it again and again...lol)

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Couldn't agree more. Your first point is significant, need to receive for it to be worthwhile. Absolutely. 

 

Regarding the Tater countercharge, Thresher poised counter attack, if you hit the 11' b2b, it's a moot point. Tater's KD is on 3, and according to https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=probability+of+third+6+on+tenth+roll&lk=3 that is a 1 in 21 chance.  If he hits it, he also knocks down Thresher which might be a problem for him. Haven't modelled 4 shots on a KD Thresher, however on 4 hits, you drop 16 damage. It downs't spike down with 3 hits, but it spikes up with 5 hits..... Anyway....

Tater's push is irrelevant as if he hits it, you can simply sacrifice 1 damage for a dodge (or not, if you spite high enough lol). That removes the chance of Threshers counter attack delivering a second push and moving you out of melee. The average result of PV's charge is 4.5 hits,  4 is either M2D or 3. Drop to 3 hits is M1D or 2. 

There are a LOT of variables in play, however one of the biggest is actually Tater and his positioning. If your opponent leaves Tater JUST 2' away, after the Thresher counter attack, you bonus time your first "normal" swing, and look for a M2D to drop just out of his engagement range to get your extra dice back.

Just another nifty Tater trick. Most of the time Tater won't counter charge if he thinks you are setting up a run at Thresher, no matter what you do. It is quite legit to move a player (I like Colossus for this) to just on 6' of Tater with the ball. If he counter charges you, great. Sure, he knocks you down and the ball scatters, but Tater is isolated. PV can roll Tater and pass / teamwork away from Thresher, leaving him open next turn. If Tater doesn't counter charge (the most likely option), then Colossus can PASS to PV, and take the TW action in to Tater, engaging him and ruining the counter charge. If you have the spare Inf, you can shoot for a KD or 2 on Tater the neuter the Millhouse effect, and prevent Thresher simply going in to Colossus and freeing Tater up. Either way, with 20 health and Tough Hide, Colossus can handle Thresher coming in to him unless he get's Tater up first (just) and give PV that opening.

Another alternative here is, depending on positioning, is to pass the ball and Team Work Colossus into Thresher directly, however placing him in a position that will totally ruin Tater reaching where you want PV to charge (if that makes sense when typed). Sure, the big fella will take a beating, but PV can go in, Smack the old bloke up, and throw a heal on Colossus. 

So many variables, as I said, but I think Thresher is going to serious help non farmer players play, because working around the holy trinity (Thresher, Tater and Millhouse) and pulling the combo apart will help us face any other challenging synergy that comes out.

 

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