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Furnace

I'm the worst Corsair there is.

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I keep reading on the forums here how Corsair is a machine and how he's the answer to every solution and how you should always play Corsair into basically everything. I have now played Corsair to Hunters and Masons and I achieve nothing. Usually against Hunters my crew isn't moving anywhere and I can't get enough mom or damage to clear those counters, against Masons (I believe the kick off 6) I achieve even less. Usually it goes that either A&G or Corsair is Goaded and can't do shit, or then I'm counter charged, knocked down and lose 6 influence. Or I'm counter charged and pushed out of melee with A&G leaving him utterly useless. 

I tried Shark into Hunters but that was even worse, they just picked the ball and took it to the far end of their field and I just died on the way trying to get there. I'm getting a bit disheartened with the Fishers. I played a few games with Butchers and they were easier to get a grasp on, both ball play and murdering things. 

Fish, I really don't understand how am I supposed to do either. Even worse I seem to be lacking in every possible field against the Masons, I try to make a bubble they just dodge out, I tried to kill things I get killed, that Captain + Monkey combo just melts my models. I try to cage the ball up but no such luck as pretty much all of them have tackle and very low results and then the two of those double activate and that's about it. 

I've tried to read into the threads here but I can't seem to find much info on what to actually do. Everyone keeps saying A&G + Corsair do a ton of damage, my Corsair + A&G do pretty much nothing due to pinned, snared + forest or Goad + counter charge pushes. 

So how are the Fish supposed to be played? 

Usually my list has been Corsair, Hag, Tentacles, Siren (or vSiren), Sakana, A&G (or Kraken but he does even less). 

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What Hunters team were you playing against? I think Corsair has very good game into both captains as his Tough Hide works particularly well against a team without access to Tooled Up, and they have an incredibly hard time getting the ball off of Corsair once he has it. Pinned is annoying, but it's still once per turn - you have a lot of models to play with, and Siren is an absolute all star here, as usual. She's safe from their ranged plays to either steal the ball, or to position herself for a Lure to pull people in or reposition them into Corsair's range if he is getting gunned down. Prey on their lack of 2" melees - drag them to just inside Corsair's melee range so their next activation looks bad, get crowd outs when you can, tackle the ball without fear of counter attacks, and Blind the models who threaten to do a bunch of attacks or go for a goal run. 

A&G post-errata were popular with Corsair because he utilized them the best, but many have moved off of them since. They do a lot of damage, but they'll always have the problem of being easy to disrupt and once one of the duo is dead, the other is almost useless. Gutter is a popular Union choice currently because of her access to momentous damage and Chain Grab acting as another Drag-like ability. She also has a solid kick stat, which is important for a team that wants to get at least one goal. 

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Note that if Corsair gets countercharged, he is Sturdy, so he doesn't really care much. He might get pushed back a bit, but he can just Harpoon brick back into melee with him, knockdown / soften him up a bit, and then have A&G kill him.

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How many games have you played with Corsair? Don't be so down on yourself. I've played five or so games with Fish, lost em all, but learn stuff every time. The only team I could ever just beat an opponent w/was Morticians and Obulus. 

If you enjoy playing Fish, stick with them, set a time frame, where you only play Fish, and then evaluate them. Say, six months. Also, there are some guilds that just click with some people, and after you play them for a bit, you can see if they really click with you, or perhaps not. Right now, I love Hunters, but they are not clicking w/me. I struggle with them each and every game, and usually get waffle stomped. 

These articles are great:

http://midwestwargaming.com/guildball-new-guys-knowing-enough-team-get-activation/

Also, watch some youtube, I find this so helpful.

 

I am not a good player by any means, and I  have trouble sticking w/one guild. I did come back to Fish, and it was like putting on an old comfortable boot, or picking up an old fishing rod. Just feels right.

If you get fed up w/Fish, put them up for a bit, play a guild that is drastically different then they, then come back to them. You'd be surprised how much you'll appreciate them again.

They are a very fortunate guild, two strong captains, and some decent support pieces. Maybe wean yourself off of A&G. I really like taking Greyscales w/me, he is just a great tool, and threatens goals. Maybe you need to game plan before you chuck dice. What do you want to do? Maybe what you want to do is not conducive to Corsair, but more Shark.

Anyway, I know I didn't throw down massive wisdom here, but keep on trying.

 

 

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Not very helpful advice, I know, but versus Masons I generally prefer Shark over Corsair. A Shark team has the speed and abilities to score faster than the Masons and stay away from the brawls. Corsair is good at brawling but so are the Masons, so I feel that he doesn’t really want to try and scrum with them, especially not Hammer.

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If people are telling you Corsair is a auto-win button and should be played into everything, they're wrong. Corsair is a very strong captain and plays a very strong attrition, death scrum game but there are plenty of bad match-ups out there. I think Corsair has pretty solid game into Hunters, but Hunters have some good counter-play by using Fahad as a DEF6 blocker for Lure & Drag and have the ability to pretty much remove a weak link turn one with Theron + oHearne and roll that into turn two. Masons aren't necessarily a bad match up but Honour has the tools to score fast enough that Corsair can't quite keep pace with, as well as the ability to remove the weak links when the ball isn't there's to play with. 

I wouldn't be too hard on yourself, Guildball isn't a simple game so don't give up on yourself. First thing do is lose the notion that Corsair is a auto-win and stop beating yourself up for losing, everything takes practice and Guildball is one of those games that require a lot. Second thing to do is go to youtube and watch all the fish games you can, you might pick up a thing or two about positioning, neat set plays they do or just inter-guild synergies you've missed so far. Lastly make some notes on each game, where do you think you lost it, what mistakes did you make, what could you do differently next time? 

Hopefully those three things help you to improve your game. If they don't help, maybe it's just the Fisherman guilds playstyle isn't for you and you could look at trying another guild. Hopefully that's the last resort though buddy. 

 

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18 hours ago, Akaleth said:

What Hunters team were you playing against? I think Corsair has very good game into both captains as his Tough Hide works particularly well against a team without access to Tooled Up, and they have an incredibly hard time getting the ball off of Corsair once he has it. Pinned is annoying, but it's still once per turn - you have a lot of models to play with, and Siren is an absolute all star here, as usual. She's safe from their ranged plays to either steal the ball, or to position herself for a Lure to pull people in or reposition them into Corsair's range if he is getting gunned down. Prey on their lack of 2" melees - drag them to just inside Corsair's melee range so their next activation looks bad, get crowd outs when you can, tackle the ball without fear of counter attacks, and Blind the models who threaten to do a bunch of attacks or go for a goal run. 

A&G post-errata were popular with Corsair because he utilized them the best, but many have moved off of them since. They do a lot of damage, but they'll always have the problem of being easy to disrupt and once one of the duo is dead, the other is almost useless. Gutter is a popular Union choice currently because of her access to momentous damage and Chain Grab acting as another Drag-like ability. She also has a solid kick stat, which is important for a team that wants to get at least one goal. 

Theron, Fahad, Minx, oHearne, Jaecar, Zarola (sometimes she's been swapped to Chaska if I remember correctly). But last game was an utter grindfest, it took forever and neither one of us achieved anything, I played Corsair, oSiren, Tentacles, Hag, Sakana, Kraken, for 3 turns my entire crew apart from Corsair tried to kill Minx to net me 2 points but just couldn't do it. I feel like the entire damage game is on Corsair and everyone else is just cheering him on with influence and crowd outs. Also Kraken gives out way way too much momentum away without doing much himself for that trade off. 

Blegh, I just ordered A&G and found that out immediately that he's super easy to disrupt. Mainly the monkey from Masons keeps on Goading it or counter charging and pushing him away. I don't have Gutter and I'm a bit against ordering another Union pick especially as they're tough to find in singles and as they're going to be lost anyway. :( 

1 hour ago, ForestRambo said:

If people are telling you Corsair is a auto-win button and should be played into everything, they're wrong. Corsair is a very strong captain and plays a very strong attrition, death scrum game but there are plenty of bad match-ups out there. I think Corsair has pretty solid game into Hunters, but Hunters have some good counter-play by using Fahad as a DEF6 blocker for Lure & Drag and have the ability to pretty much remove a weak link turn one with Theron + oHearne and roll that into turn two. Masons aren't necessarily a bad match up but Honour has the tools to score fast enough that Corsair can't quite keep pace with, as well as the ability to remove the weak links when the ball isn't there's to play with. 

I wouldn't be too hard on yourself, Guildball isn't a simple game so don't give up on yourself. First thing do is lose the notion that Corsair is a auto-win and stop beating yourself up for losing, everything takes practice and Guildball is one of those games that require a lot. Second thing to do is go to youtube and watch all the fish games you can, you might pick up a thing or two about positioning, neat set plays they do or just inter-guild synergies you've missed so far. Lastly make some notes on each game, where do you think you lost it, what mistakes did you make, what could you do differently next time? 

Hopefully those three things help you to improve your game. If they don't help, maybe it's just the Fisherman guilds playstyle isn't for you and you could look at trying another guild. Hopefully that's the last resort though buddy. 

 

I've found Masons to be the absolute worst, if I pick Shark or Corsair they just adapt and steam roll me anyway, the entire crew has tackles on basically first or second column with momentum, they do better damage, they are durable, they have chain activations, double activations, they dictate my movement, they get a lot more momentum meaning I lose the initiative basically all the time, unless I manage to roll very well against that +4 they have from momentum usually against me, they play ball, they do damage, they charge for free.. I'm at a complete loss as to what to do against them? 

12 hours ago, Falkman said:

Not very helpful advice, I know, but versus Masons I generally prefer Shark over Corsair. A Shark team has the speed and abilities to score faster than the Masons and stay away from the brawls. Corsair is good at brawling but so are the Masons, so I feel that he doesn’t really want to try and scrum with them, especially not Hammer.

Haven't yet faced Hammer but Honor has been horrible enough. :D I played Shark yesterday into them and I had a moderate fighting chance for a while, not a lot as they just simply seemed to do everything almost as well or better than my crew did and they can shift gears from playing ball and scoring to beating my models to a pulp. Where as I can only try and score goals and hope for the best. And making three goals while staying alive seems very tough to achieve. How do you do that? 

18 hours ago, Gauntlet said:

Note that if Corsair gets countercharged, he is Sturdy, so he doesn't really care much. He might get pushed back a bit, but he can just Harpoon brick back into melee with him, knockdown / soften him up a bit, and then have A&G kill him.

Oh yeah.. Did not remember that actually. Well that sucks. 

17 hours ago, Ragnar Rok said:

How many games have you played with Corsair? Don't be so down on yourself. I've played five or so games with Fish, lost em all, but learn stuff every time. The only team I could ever just beat an opponent w/was Morticians and Obulus. 

If you enjoy playing Fish, stick with them, set a time frame, where you only play Fish, and then evaluate them. Say, six months. Also, there are some guilds that just click with some people, and after you play them for a bit, you can see if they really click with you, or perhaps not. Right now, I love Hunters, but they are not clicking w/me. I struggle with them each and every game, and usually get waffle stomped. 

These articles are great:

http://midwestwargaming.com/guildball-new-guys-knowing-enough-team-get-activation/

Also, watch some youtube, I find this so helpful.

I am not a good player by any means, and I  have trouble sticking w/one guild. I did come back to Fish, and it was like putting on an old comfortable boot, or picking up an old fishing rod. Just feels right.

If you get fed up w/Fish, put them up for a bit, play a guild that is drastically different then they, then come back to them. You'd be surprised how much you'll appreciate them again.

They are a very fortunate guild, two strong captains, and some decent support pieces. Maybe wean yourself off of A&G. I really like taking Greyscales w/me, he is just a great tool, and threatens goals. Maybe you need to game plan before you chuck dice. What do you want to do? Maybe what you want to do is not conducive to Corsair, but more Shark.

Anyway, I know I didn't throw down massive wisdom here, but keep on trying.

I've played a couple of games with Corsair, 4ish? and a few games with Shark, maybe 2? So I haven't played that many games, I did play Butchers however and didn't have much of a problem trying to figure out what to do, they can adapt quite well I feel as to where the Fishermen don't seem very adaptive in game. 

I need to read those articles and watch some youtube then. 

So Greyscales instead of A&G? So the list would be Corsair, oSiren, Tentacles, Sakana, Hag, Greyscales, then it's again all on Corsair to try and do the damage on that list. And he isn't the toughest to disrupt with his df3. 

But true enough, I probably need to start making bigger and better game plans. 

 

Thanks everyone for your input. Really appreciate it. This game is tough to get a grip on and I feel the Fish are just making it so much worse. :D Should've probably picked an easier Guild. 

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Corsair has a lot of unique and strong tools to deal with basically anything, which makes him very strong and is in my opinion one of the best captains out there. 

However. Strong does not mean easy to use. He is a lot about making the right game decisions and good placements - on top of having quite an unique style to him.

Don't beat yourself up if it does not work out perfectly straight out of the gate :) 

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54 minutes ago, Warpstoned said:

Corsair has a lot of unique and strong tools to deal with basically anything, which makes him very strong and is in my opinion one of the best captains out there. 

However. Strong does not mean easy to use. He is a lot about making the right game decisions and good placements - on top of having quite an unique style to him.

Don't beat yourself up if it does not work out perfectly straight out of the gate :) 

That's my understanding from reading these boards that he's really good. What is his unique style? Is he supposed to be wrestling with the opposing team? And are you supposed to be running around in a ball like the good old orc cage from Blood Bowl? Or is Corsair supposed to be running around with just a few back ups and others more spread around? 

Also, why is Corsair so good? Might sound like a silly question. :D

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14 minutes ago, Furnace said:

That's my understanding from reading these boards that he's really good. What is his unique style? Is he supposed to be wrestling with the opposing team? And are you supposed to be running around in a ball like the good old orc cage from Blood Bowl? Or is Corsair supposed to be running around with just a few back ups and others more spread around? 

Also, why is Corsair so good? Might sound like a silly question. :D

Corsair is good for a few reasons:

- He gets to dictate the terms of engagement with Drag. This means that he doesn't have to dive into the middle of the enemy team to do damage, he has a long threat range (so he can usually reach you before you can reach him) and usually if you're fighting him you're doing so in the middle of his team.

- Sturdy means he is very resistant to being controlled himself. A lot of 'setup' players - like Ghast or Tapper - want to go in, knock down a target for someone to kill, and provide a Ganging Up bonus. Corsair doesn't care about this every much. He can also ignore KDs on parting blows, meaning he can just walk out of a lot of scary situations other would be stuck in.

- His short playbook means he wraps easily. This is another point towards grouping your players up around your target. He needs 7 hits to do 5 momentous damage, or 8 to do 5 with double momentum, which isn't that hard with some setup. Being able to spend 6 influence on the beatdown also means he pretty reliably can do 12 damage if he needs to.

- Close control, an early tackle, and a good KD all mean that Corsair can hold the ball and deny a lot of strikers opportunities to score. If someone like Flint goes in for the ball, you ignore the first tackle, counterattack the second attack and either KD or Tackle the ball back, and then finally lose the ball after they've spent 3 inf which usually means they can't score. Then you take the ball straight back again.

 

Usually, plan A with Corsair is something like this:

1. Put the ball on Corsair.

2. Blind whoever on the enemy team has lots of influence to spend / might be able to kill someone or score.

3. Drag in an enemy player.

4. Put 3-4 melee zones on the enemy player, preventing them from doing anything and setting up the kill with Corsair.

5. Kill them and Drag the next target in.

6. If you have less than 8VPs, go to 2.

7. Score a goal and win the game.

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Thank you very much, I've also found that he wraps quite easily. But maybe I've been picking the wrong targets to the mosh pit, I usually drag what I can but I should probably spend more time building up the pit with the right targets. That's a good point, putting the ball on Corsair I usually have someone running around with the ball Sakana or Siren, or then I have the ball on Tentacles. But good point, Corsair it is! 

That is a very good game plan rundown, I've tried to follow those steps pretty much! I've managed that with the Butchers though, someone holds the ball, I fight around until I have 8 points and then I score, but not with the Fishers. 

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7 hours ago, ForestRambo said:

If people are telling you Corsair is a auto-win button and should be played into everything, they're wrong. Corsair is a very strong captain and plays a very strong attrition, death scrum game but there are plenty of bad match-ups out there. I think Corsair has pretty solid game into Hunters, but Hunters have some good counter-play by using Fahad as a DEF6 blocker for Lure & Drag and have the ability to pretty much remove a weak link turn one with Theron + oHearne and roll that into turn two. Masons aren't necessarily a bad match up but Honour has the tools to score fast enough that Corsair can't quite keep pace with, as well as the ability to remove the weak links when the ball isn't there's to play with. 

I wouldn't be too hard on yourself, Guildball isn't a simple game so don't give up on yourself. First thing do is lose the notion that Corsair is a auto-win and stop beating yourself up for losing, everything takes practice and Guildball is one of those games that require a lot. Second thing to do is go to youtube and watch all the fish games you can, you might pick up a thing or two about positioning, neat set plays they do or just inter-guild synergies you've missed so far. Lastly make some notes on each game, where do you think you lost it, what mistakes did you make, what could you do differently next time? 

Hopefully those three things help you to improve your game. If they don't help, maybe it's just the Fisherman guilds playstyle isn't for you and you could look at trying another guild. Hopefully that's the last resort though buddy. 

 

If someone tells you a Captain is a flat out auto win, they are probably a really, really good player, and it's more along their skill set than the captain.  Of course, I haven't faced Thresher yet...lol.

Not to give a shameless plug, but check out ForestRambo's blog, it covers some really cool guilds, but also goes in depth with some other intangible aspects that may help you with your game.  

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1 hour ago, Ragnar Rok said:

If someone tells you a Captain is a flat out auto win, they are probably a really, really good player, and it's more along their skill set than the captain.  Of course, I haven't faced Thresher yet...lol.

Corsair is actually pretty solid against Thresher. If you can drag him before he's had all his stuff set up for him, you can keep him away from Harvest Markers and prevent him getting Tooled Up, which is a pretty good plan.

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5 minutes ago, Gauntlet said:

Corsair is actually pretty solid against Thresher. If you can drag him before he's had all his stuff set up for him, you can keep him away from Harvest Markers and prevent him getting Tooled Up, which is a pretty good plan.

I will probably be playing against Thresher tomorrow night, if not Thresher, for sure the Grange. line up of Grange, Peck, Windle, Bushel, Harrow, JackStraw.

 

 

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Just now, Ragnar Rok said:

I will probably be playing against Thresher tomorrow night, if not Thresher, for sure the Grange.

Corsair is solid into Thresher but has a bit of a worrying time against Grange, since both teams do the same thing but Grange's team trades ball-holding ability for better damage. I think into Grange you probably want to aim for 2-3 goals, even with Corsair.

Shark is also pretty solid into Farmers (though he can be one rounded by Thresher pretty easily, so take care). 

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I think Gauntlet described corsair's strengths very well, I just wanted to talk about the match-ups real quick.

I think honour is one of corsair's best match ups (although hammer is probably his worst match up aside from thresher). I'd suggest trying A&G, Hag, Vsiren, Jac and tentacles. This is my preferred line-up, especially into union or masons.

Honour Masons have a lot of set-up models to get the most out of their players, between mallet for singled out, tower with tooled up, and marbles for assist honour, this gives you plenty of activations to blind honour/mallet and set up dread gaze. Fisher's reel/legendary on hag as well as jac's heroic  allow you to avoid crowdouts easily, especially the monkey.

Just try playing avarisse and Greede further back to avoid control, and fully utilizing drag/fisher's reel to get them in position, as losing the A&G activation REALLY hurts your output.

Double counter charge doesn't hurt your plan too much, as you want to be as far back as possible, so the Brick counter charge puts him in a bad spot against a&g's absurd damage, and if you can kill the monkey early, honour will have a much harder time getting through your tough hide.

As for the hunters match-up, Hag helps mitigate the control aspect, and they will have a rough time keeping up with  you in momentum, try using the divide between turns to set up double corsair activations to drag in the important models.

A bit long-winded but I hope it helps.

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Cheers, good info! 

I'm still a bit unsure how Honour is one of Corsair best match ups, as they can just take the ball away, chain activate and score a goal, especially if I'm playing as far back as possible, it means the ball is very near my goal. Or there's Flint who double activates, takes the ball away, pushes out and scores. 

Could you maybe elaborate a bit more as to how Corsair is so good into Honour? I mean Blind is really tough to achieve, I've tried blinding models multiple times but it just fails, Dread Gaze I must admit I didn't try casting the one time I played vSiren before I swapped over to oSiren. Jac I haven't yet tried, I have to try him out as well then. 

Hag I usually add, because she adds two influence but she can do things even without any, so seems quite okay if very squishy. But I was told to take her as a "battery" and it's worked quite okay. 

Well the last time I played into Hunters they had absolutely no issues keeping up with the momentum, quite the contrary my friend ended one turn with easily over 10 momentum spare and he used quite a bit that turn. Kraken is the worst. :D

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I mean, a lot of things have to go into the linked activation goal, most of their influence and giving the fish player last activation, or last two activations! That also requires some pretty good positioning for the Fish player to not activate Corsair early to stop it. Flint double activating also requires 4 of your captain's influence and an activation in which he can be blinded/neutered with dread gaze. Even with 1 crowd out or cover, Flint has a hard time taking anything but the tackle against corsair.

A bonus-timed blind has somewhere around a 90% chance to hit, Masons are notorious for their low defense making controlling them easy.

Even the best ball retrieval teams struggle to get the ball off of corsair fishermen between close control, fear, low tackles, TAC debuffs and multiple 2" reach models. Masons especially suffer due to the number of 1" reach strikers. 

It's obviously possible for Masons to get goals in the match up, but the fish defensive tech taxing Honour's 12 INF makes it rough, especially since she is greedy, usually wanting 6 herself (on a model with 3 DEF against Drag/Blind).

And you're right, Kraken is the worst. :)

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16 hours ago, Ragnar Rok said:

If someone tells you a Captain is a flat out auto win, they are probably a really, really good player, and it's more along their skill set than the captain.  Of course, I haven't faced Thresher yet...lol.

Not to give a shameless plug, but check out ForestRambo's blog, it covers some really cool guilds, but also goes in depth with some other intangible aspects that may help you with your game.  

You're too kind Ragnar, you da man. 

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12 hours ago, PocketsTheGreat said:

I mean, a lot of things have to go into the linked activation goal, most of their influence and giving the fish player last activation, or last two activations! That also requires some pretty good positioning for the Fish player to not activate Corsair early to stop it. Flint double activating also requires 4 of your captain's influence and an activation in which he can be blinded/neutered with dread gaze. Even with 1 crowd out or cover, Flint has a hard time taking anything but the tackle against corsair.

A bonus-timed blind has somewhere around a 90% chance to hit, Masons are notorious for their low defense making controlling them easy.

Even the best ball retrieval teams struggle to get the ball off of corsair fishermen between close control, fear, low tackles, TAC debuffs and multiple 2" reach models. Masons especially suffer due to the number of 1" reach strikers. 

It's obviously possible for Masons to get goals in the match up, but the fish defensive tech taxing Honour's 12 INF makes it rough, especially since she is greedy, usually wanting 6 herself (on a model with 3 DEF against Drag/Blind).

And you're right, Kraken is the worst. :)

Hm.. Solid points. I most likely need to start paying more attention to Tentacles then. Good shout. 

I think I've usually been throwing Blind around without bonus time as I haven't had the momentum to bonus time it, usually I start getting momentum only when Corsair starts wailing on something. And he's usually around the last to go. 

I wonder how I lose the ball the all the time then.. :D What am I doing so wrong.. Well I need to look into that. 

Good thing I was right on something however, even though it was on Kraken. It's a bit sad that he is how he is, because I am terrified to field him again for that reason. 

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