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malladin.ben

Into Blacksmiths...?

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How are people finding the blacksmiths match up?

I've only played a few games against them now with my Ox efficiency butchers list (truffles, Shank, Boar, Rage and Meathook) and I've brutalised them every time. The game I had last night I managed to get to 8-0 up and leave him with 3 INF left for the turn after the second activation of turn 2.

Ox went first, popped his legendary and took down Iron from almost full health, setting up Butchery on Hearth and Alloy and putting a bonus hit in on Alloy in the process. He then activates Hearth (who was looking at a potential Boar charge to the face) so that he can get her out of there and do a bit of set up, so I go with shank who takes two attacks (under legendary and butchery) to finish off Alloy and then scores a goal. I still had Boar and Rage both in charge range of Furnace. Both Iron and Alloy had a full stack. At that point he concedes so that we can start a second game, but man it was brutal. This was a player who before this was on about a 5 game winning streak against me. That said, he was playing team fairly new to him, whilst I wa splaying one I was very well practiced with.

It feels to me that butchers, and Ox in particular, has a really strong game into Blacksmiths. High TAC is a naturally better against high armour, and my list operates at TAC 6 minimum (Truffles only ever charges so is at least TAC 7, effectively). Ox also has plenty of ARM debuffs to hand around. The low def-high armour just makes the use of character plays really easy to get off, too. Add to that the fact you've got 3 target models that are notably squishier than the usual fodder. It really does feel like easy pickings.

Its gone so well I think I may be setting myself up for a big shock in the future. Anyone else faced Blacksmiths and struggled? What problems can they cause for us?

Cheerio,

Ben

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I also found Butchers into Blacksmiths a comfortable matchup.

I play Ox, Truffles, Meathook, Boar, Shank, Brisket2 into them and that really works well. That's a lot of damage.

 

A little bit problematic is Burnish. A Tooled Up Burnish does 8-12 damage to potentially a lot of people, as these butchers end up bunching up.

And a full on scoring team (Ferrite, Hearth, Farris, Bolt, Alloy, Cinder) could also be a problem, but I haven't played against that yet.

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I have played both into and as blacksmith vs the butchers. The goal scoring team is very good with the capabilities to spread out and dodge out of most attacks. Any time Ox can get a hold of a model it will die pretty quickly with easy access to arm reduction. If the blacksmith player spreads out then it will cause issues or if they can take out Ox and/or boiler then life will be a little easier. Overall I think it is a 60-40 game in favor of Ox. 

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The numbers seem like Ox would be good as I think Fillet would find the armour difficultto overcome to get at what she wants in thenolay book.

 

Butchers have a good few tools to get round armour and have good low playbook results for simple damage output that with ox will result in some hard hits.  

Blacksmiths feel generally slower and need to bunch a bit more if they want the master/apprentice buffs that play into Oxs domain.  I’m messing around with Blacksmiths at the moment and am dreading the Butcher fights!

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High TAC is also a good counter to high armour. fillet into def 2/3 hits blood rain 80% of the time, her KD on the charge 95% of the time. With an assist and a bonus time she can KD on an attack 67% of the time. 

Into Farris, who she probably doesn't need to worry about a counter attack from if she can get b2b, if she ploughs all her earned MP back into bonus time she should get blood rain, then 2dmg twice and 3dmg 3 times for 18 damage. That's a dead Farris without any help at all and still be left with 2 MP at the end of it. If you hit your 3 damage results early you can probably afford not to bonus time the last attack or two and save yourself a bit of momentum, but the first attack after blood rain on my has a 33% chance of hitting the 3dmg result in col5, so it's likely of the last on you'll need to worry about.

With the armour debuffs I think Ox has a better game, but don't forget that part of the advantage is the high TAC scores, and those extra dice can really help you out against the low def high arm models

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Just on paper, it seems a team like Farris, Ferrite, Hearth, Bolt, Alloy & throw in random guy here? Should have all the tech they need to score much fast then you can allow a Butcher player to kill your team. With good positioning and the sheer speed / shenanigans BS can throw out I'd consider it a bad match up for Ox.

I'm not saying your opponents played bad but a scoring line up should be as bad as  Shark / Pin Vice / Midas for Ox and in fact I'd say BS are one of the fastest scoring teams with some INSANE goal threat ranges (Bolt looking at you). 

All that said, I've not played the match up and I could totally be wrong, but that's my impression on the face of it. 

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5 hours ago, ForestRambo said:

Just on paper, it seems a team like Farris, Ferrite, Hearth, Bolt, Alloy & throw in random guy here? Should have all the tech they need to score much fast then you can allow a Butcher player to kill your team. With good positioning and the sheer speed / shenanigans BS can throw out I'd consider it a bad match up for Ox.

I'm not saying your opponents played bad but a scoring line up should be as bad as  Shark / Pin Vice / Midas for Ox and in fact I'd say BS are one of the fastest scoring teams with some INSANE goal threat ranges (Bolt looking at you). 

All that said, I've not played the match up and I could totally be wrong, but that's my impression on the face of it. 

I can see that, actually. But it does seem that they will always have some slow players amongst them, so even with that list you mention, Hearth and Farris are very killable, and they'd have to be very careful where they place any of their apprentices. Shank I think is critical against this team - he can get the ball away from pretty much any of them other than Bolt, and Bolt can't tackle him and dodge out of his melee zone, so if you've got momentum for a counter you've probably got the ball back. My current team with Rage and Boar provides dispersed threats those apprentices will have to stay away from. Both of them have the ability to take down an apprentice in a single activation (sometimes with spiky dice, sometimes with the assistance of buffs and nerfs (despite maverick, Rage still benefits from Hooked, They Ain't Tough and the ARM component of Ox's legendary), sometimes they need to wait for the maintenance phase for the bleed to finish them off.

It would be tougher than the matches I've played vs BS so far, definitely, but would it be a comparison to Shark or Midas (never had a problem vs Engineers, there's always someone slow to kill if they're moving the ball around)? They've not got the huge wealth of goal threats you see in a Shark team, and a lot of them are killable in a single activation, which means that you can play to spoil their strategy. You can't easily do the same vs Shark, 15hp poised Sakana or unpredictable greyscales. There's not the same abundance of 2" melee zones making your life difficult, either. A really good Fishermen player feeds you a model, lets you stack up some damage on them, then pulls them back before you can finish them off, I can't see BS being able to do this to the same extent, because if they feed me a model, I can probably kill it in a single activation. 

Some quick calculations: chance for Boar to kill, with +1 DMG buff (tooled up or Ox's aura) +1 TAC (bonus time or assist).

Vs Ferrite (3/2, 17hp)=52%

Vs Farris (2/3, 18hp)=71%

Vs Hearth (2/2, 23hp)=13%

Vs Alloy, Sledge (4/1 12hp)=96%

Vs Bolt (4/1 13hp)=91%

Vs Iron (2/2 14hp TH)= 96%

Vs Cast, Cinder (3/1, 13hp)>99%

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11 minutes ago, malladin.ben said:

I can see that, actually. But it does seem that they will always have some slow players amongst them, so even with that list you mention, Hearth and Farris are very killable, and they'd have to be very careful where they place any of their apprentices. Shank I think is critical against this team - he can get the ball away from pretty much any of them other than Bolt, and Bolt can't tackle him and dodge out of his melee zone, so if you've got momentum for a counter you've probably got the ball back. My current team with Rage and Boar provides dispersed threats those apprentices will have to stay away from. Both of them have the ability to take down an apprentice in a single activation (sometimes with spiky dice, sometimes with the assistance of buffs and nerfs (despite maverick, Rage still benefits from Hooked, They Ain't Tough and the ARM component of Ox's legendary), sometimes they need to wait for the maintenance phase for the bleed to finish them off.

It would be tougher than the matches I've played vs BS so far, definitely, but would it be a comparison to Shark or Midas (never had a problem vs Engineers, there's always someone slow to kill if they're moving the ball around)? They've not got the huge wealth of goal threats you see in a Shark team, and a lot of them are killable in a single activation, which means that you can play to spoil their strategy. You can't easily do the same vs Shark, 15hp poised Sakana or unpredictable greyscales. There's not the same abundance of 2" melee zones making your life difficult, either. A really good Fishermen player feeds you a model, lets you stack up some damage on them, then pulls them back before you can finish them off, I can't see BS being able to do this to the same extent, because if they feed me a model, I can probably kill it in a single activation. 

Some quick calculations: chance for Boar to kill, with +1 DMG buff (tooled up or Ox's aura) +1 TAC (bonus time or assist).

Vs Ferrite (3/2, 17hp)=52%

Vs Farris (2/3, 18hp)=71%

Vs Hearth (2/2, 23hp)=13%

Vs Alloy, Sledge (4/1 12hp)=96%

Vs Bolt (4/1 13hp)=91%

Vs Iron (2/2 14hp TH)= 96%

Vs Cast, Cinder (3/1, 13hp)>99%

Yeah the above seems pretty fair, can't argue with much of it. Anything that gives Ox more table time I can get behind, love watching him / his team just delete people.

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