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The competitive 10

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I concider myself a "seasoned" alchemist player at this point but I am far from what I would concider scary. I'm at the point where im going to go all out back into the Alchemists after running a lot of Butchers and Hunters over the last while. I feel I am equally good with both captains and can confidenty use either one.

So this is where the discussion starts is there a concensus about who is in the best competitive 10. 

Last event I ran Midas, Smoke, Naja, okatylist, vet katalyst, Mercury, Calculus, Vitiol, Venin Compound and came in second. 

The biggest debate I have in this list is Vet katalyst vs Mist vs Venin. 2 out of 3 of these guys are going to make the list but which ones? I love the extra goal threat of Mist and Vet Kat is also very fun to play. I find venin is a very good ball retriever and can brawl if I need him to and score in a pinch if I get lucky. 

Is this a normal debate? Is there a reason to concider Crucible? 

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There was a pretty good thread on this topic here (LINK), if you haven't read it. I think vKat is very solid in some match-ups, so I really see this as more a choice of Mist vs. Venin. Although, if you wanted to make it more complicated you could consider Decimate. I think she has value as an additional damage-source/pseudo-striker (what Venin seemed to accomplish for you). Her Second Wind ability can also provide great utility in some match-ups.

Between Venin and Mist, Mist is the stronger model. When going for Goals, Midas really wants to score and seems to struggle with brawling. Mist is just a monster striker, which would make that team stronger. Smoke should do fine with the models you have.

The consensus seems to be that Crucible is hard to make work effectively, which is unfortunate because she's a very cool model. 

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If I was playing with my Alchemists (They always tease me back) 

I'd be rocking Midas, Smoke, Naja, Vitriol, Calculus, Mercury, Compound, oKat, vKat & Mist. I have no problems with leaving Crucible / Venin on the bench. I'd love to bring in flask but I don't think his opportunistic is cost is worth it and Naja is never a bad choice. 

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My standard team right now is:

Midas, Smoke, Flask, oKat, vKat, Vitriol, Mercury, Calculus, Crucible, Mist. I love Naja, she's great, but I can't manage to bring both mascots into my roster. Because Flask is better with Midas than Naja is with Smoke (if that makes sense?) that's why I bring only Flask. Crucible has her moments when playing against a lot of 1" melee models. She can easily get within 4" of the enemy Goal and then she makes a solid snap-shot turret. Other than that, she works great with oKat, if you can manage to KD a player and then External Combustion him within 4" of Crucible suddenly he needs 2mom to clear conditions. This is an evil way to start the turn because you can limit your opponents options for the first activation. 

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I think you'll find consensus on Midas, Smoke, [mascot], oKat, vKat, Mercury, Calculus, Compound, and probably Vitriol, but then that 10th slot is up for grabs/discussion.  One of your union options is probably the best bet there before Crucible or Venin.  I would personally take Decimate while looking longingly at Crucible sitting just out as my 11th choice.

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I think there are strong arguments for Crucible and Venin both in Smoke lists. I find giving Venin one influence and having him go last to Sprint and heroic can really throw the opponent game off when they suddenly take x amount of bleed damage that they weren't expecting to take at the end of a turn. On top of that, you can load him up and really spread some poison around for vKat. Alternatively, I love Crucible into anything that does conditions such as Hunters to spread around their own snares, and really operates as a decent striker in any condition game although I find she's harder to use than Venin. Granted, I am a noob and haven't tried Deci yet so take all this with a grain of salt.

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I am by no means a really good player, but I think the ten is very dependent on play style. I am a very 'charge into melee' type of player (read Khorne). That style doesn't fit Alchemists. I like the jack of all trades.  I played always played Midas, but learned Smoke after the nerf. I also read the forums a lot so there is a lot of help and information here. Sometime after I get VetKat painted I will have to try him in a game. 

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4 hours ago, Coach Z said:

I think you'll find consensus on Midas, Smoke, [mascot], oKat, vKat, Mercury, Calculus, Compound, and probably Vitriol, but then that 10th slot is up for grabs/discussion.  One of your union options is probably the best bet there before Crucible or Venin.  I would personally take Decimate while looking longingly at Crucible sitting just out as my 11th choice.

This is what I feel like as well, and I think that last slot (and your mascot choice) depends on what "primary" team you're trying to run in most matchups:

  • Vince's Smoke gameplan? Flask and Decimate/Harry (Second Wind and reliable 8 dmg and 4 mom vs. extra fire circle, mom pushes, and 2" melee)
  • Goalscoring Midas team? Naja and Mist

I've been trying to theorycraft a good team with Venin and/or Crucible but I feel like I don't get enough work out of either of them unless I have both, and I currently don't have room in my 10 for that.

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I’ve had crucible be my MVP in a few games. The problem is she doesn’t do any one thing well, but she doesn’t have any weaknesses either (outside of the general Alchemist squishiness) her dmg is good for a non beater,  her kicking game is solid, she’s fast, her condition game is versatile and she can get 5 def and her playbook is good for MOM generation.  Not to mention how frustrating her Covalence aura is. She can be a threat without even giving her influence.  

I always tend to bring her against Fungineers or if I need a high Def team. She just really requires a lot of thought when positioning and handing out influence, though and needs to be protected on the field.

I would take Mist over Venin, though. To ME, I would only bring Venin if I was going full condition game and needed a bleed bot. Mist is just generally better, but works great with Midas.

 

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Personally, my 10 is Smoke, Midas, Mascot (both are good so a playstyle choice), okat, vkat, calc, merc, Compound, Vitriol & Union. I'd love to find a slot for Venin or Cruicible but really struggle to justify it. Venin in a smoke team is a solid battery but then so is Compound and he's a lot less clock intensive plus Venin basically wants to do what smoke does (go last, push out conditions) in the early game and smoke is better and safer for doing that. He's definitely got more merit in a Midas team and can be filthy with okat but again, for me, decimate or mist edge him out.

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Ok, let's take a quick stab at this. Hopefully, it doesn't turn into another 1500 word tactica like it did last time I tried to help someone out in the Alchemists thread.

The 10 I played in Nationals was: Midas, Smoke, Flask, Calculus, Compound, Katalyst, Vet Katalyst, Mercury, Vitriol, Decimate.

I managed to take 3rd losing only to Alex "Guild Ball God" Botts.

Midas/Smoke: One of the better captain pairings in guild ball. I play primarily an un-interactive Smoke control list with a pocket super striking Midas.

Mascot: I think I am far in the minority on which mascot I prefer to play, but really both are good. Once lines meat no one wants to kill flask and naja is more trouble than she is worth. It's really personal preference. I like flask since his cloud brings influence efficiency to the Smoke list and Sic'em is still in the plot deck.

Calculus: Blind is dumb and one of the only 2 AOE throwers in the faction. A staple in Smoke decent flex pick in Midas.

Compound: I'm not sure if I made this up or not, but Mat Hart once told me that Compound was one of the highest win rate models in all of guild ball. I don't think this is far off. Maybe the best flex pick in all of guild ball. He turns off nearly all turn 1 pressure your opponent can put on you. I play him as a flex into Butchers, Shark, and Alchs (when receiving)

Katalyst: Absolutely nuts. One of the best models in the game but influence hungry. A must take for Midas and playable in Smoke although not my first choice.

Vet Katalyst: Total garbage model saved by a heroic that helps you be un-interactive. I play this in every Smoke game as it enables me to gain points without giving up momentum or control of the game.

Mercury: Must take with Smoke. Leave him at home for Midas

Vitriol: Not what she once was and a bit over-nerfed IMO but still worth the include.

Union: This is a complex issue with only 4 real options. A&G, Decimate, Harry, Mist. I don't like mist. We are in a renaissance of ball-killing and if you are playing mist and trying to score as many goals as possible you are on the wrong side of history. And even if you are convinced I'm wrong Decimate can do 80% of what Mist does and has fighting ability. Harry has been nerfed to the point where he is barely Harry anymore but a second fire AOE and low pushes are good in smoke. Avarisse and Greede are a duo I need to play more but if you are considering Midas as your main captain I think this is worth a look (I have not fully explored this pick). Decimate is my choice for a few reasons. Grace absolutely hoses Smoke with her remove an AOE nonsense making it difficult to play Smoke into grace. By taking Decimate we are giving Midas a list he can win with into Vet Rage and Farmers. Decimate also help so much in the Corsair matchup allowing us to second wind Calculus blind corsair and run away. Decimate is also the second highest damage output model in our union picks. Decimate also helps our Masons matchup and I think that the main reason Alchemists are strong right now has to do with our favored matchup into masons (one of 2 "S tier" factions.)

Crucible: Crucible is my 11th slot. Back when Midas was very strong I used her as a flex slot into Alchemist's (when kicking,) Engineer's, Hunters, and Morticians. The idea was to tax low momentum teams by having her follow around Katalyst and apply her aura. She can jog 6" and is likely close enough to one of Kat's victims to dodge 4". She is fragile but if they go after her they will likely have to overcommit right next to Katalyst.

Venin: A lot of people accuse me of hating on Venin thinking that I haven't given him a fair shake and believe me I have. The unfortunate truth is that he is outclassed in his role by a bunch of the alchemist's roster. He suffers from a ton of design issues (he wants to be both the first and last model to activate and isn't that great at either.) Venin's mini is sweet but unfortunately, his rules are not.

Whoops, guess I did it again.If you guys have questions about guild ball hit me up on twitter: @TheCurkov. Check out my YouTube: Vincent Curkov. An listen to Strictly the Worst Guild Ball Podcast.

 

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28 minutes ago, TheCurkov said:

Ok, let's take a quick stab at this. Hopefully, it doesn't turn into another 1500 word tactica like it did last time I tried to help someone out in the Alchemists thread

Thanks a lot for the insite. Never really thought of Decimate as the union pick but I'm garenteed to try this out now. I really want Venin to work because he is such a cool idea but he just isn't what he should be.

I, like you, really enjoy playing Smoke. The only matchup where I really don't like her is into the engineers and the ballista wall of tough hide. I find that even playing decently quick it is a hard game to not clock out trying to get enough dmg in to burn down a couple tough hide models with v Kat before the easy hop skip and a smoke goal for the win. 

I really do try to play smoke a lot because she really seems to be an underrated captian. at least she is in the local meta. And there are a lot of players who don't have an answer for her playstyle. 

Thanks again.

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2 hours ago, TheCurkov said:

We are in a renaissance of ball-killing and if you are playing mist and trying to score as many goals as possible you are on the wrong side of history

Well, here in Poland we moved past the Ball-killing part and went on to scoring like hell ;) On a 3 round event I score at least 6 goals. With Midas, Vitriol and Mist it's really difficult to kill the ball for your opponent. But Decimate is also on my mind, the pseudo-knee slider with her Second Wind is really appealing. 

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@TheCurkov Would you consider Compound as a staple in Smoke against teams without easy access to a ranged pull (aka not against Corsair)?  He threatens the KD on the parting blow against Lure and Puppet Master (although not reliably) and more importantly protects your circle layers with a counter charge bubble.  I think leaves you without a dedicated striker other than Smoke, but with the Vitriol nerfs I don't terribly miss it.

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13 minutes ago, MechMage said:

@TheCurkov Would you consider Compound as a staple in Smoke against teams without easy access to a ranged pull (aka not against Corsair)?  He threatens the KD on the parting blow against Lure and Puppet Master (although not reliably) and more importantly protects your circle layers with a counter charge bubble.  I think leaves you without a dedicated striker other than Smoke, but with the Vitriol nerfs I don't terribly miss it.

The only matchup I am 100% in on compound for is Butchers. He can fairly reliably ruin Filet's day. I think he is playable in quite a few matchups but I would not give him staple status in smoke. I think decimate is much closer to a staple. I think if you picked compound in any matchup where your opponent kicked with mist I would have a hard time criticizing you. As far as a dedicated striker Smoke doesn't really need one. It's really nice to have high-speed models to grab the ball when receiving, but I play Smoke planning to win the game with my only goal, so unless they can fill another role I'm not really interested. If you are interested in playing Smoke against Puppet Master, Lure, or Drag check out Ep. 13 of RTL where I play against corsair and hide behind a wall all game.

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3 minutes ago, thehydrogenator said:

Smoke is really good into Blacksmiths, the low DEF means you'll be hitting most of your aoe's. Focus down the squishy apprentices and try and get off a Witness Me!

I've also played the midas line up into smiths trying to out score the smiths while compound locks down the goal is pretty effective too. It is very difficult to kill the ball vs smiths with shoemarang and shield throw as options. Both of these plays are very easy ways to dislodge the ball. Playing a high pressure team seems to be the answer (at least in my local meta)

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On ‎12‎/‎13‎/‎2017 at 10:42 PM, TheCurkov said:

Ok, let's take a quick stab at this. Hopefully, it doesn't turn into another 1500 word tactica like it did last time I tried to help someone out in the Alchemists thread.

Thanks Vince. I thought you one or two sentences on why a selection was made was very good. It helps to reinforces Alchemists choices that are made. I lean towards Naga, but will have to give flask a little more love. Sic'em is a great card to have with Flask. I went away from Harry and started to use Decimate, she is very good at generating MOM. 

I also need to play some of the other models I've never used, just to gain some experience with them. Know you own models as well as your opponents.

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On 14/12/2017 at 7:42 AM, TheCurkov said:

Ok, let's take a quick stab at this. Hopefully, it doesn't turn into another 1500 word tactica like it did last time I tried to help someone out in the Alchemists thread.

The 10 I played in Nationals was: Midas, Smoke, Flask, Calculus, Compound, Katalyst, Vet Katalyst, Mercury, Vitriol, Decimate.

I managed to take 3rd losing only to Alex "Guild Ball God" Botts.

Midas/Smoke: One of the better captain pairings in guild ball. I play primarily an un-interactive Smoke control list with a pocket super striking Midas.

Mascot: I think I am far in the minority on which mascot I prefer to play, but really both are good. Once lines meat no one wants to kill flask and naja is more trouble than she is worth. It's really personal preference. I like flask since his cloud brings influence efficiency to the Smoke list and Sic'em is still in the plot deck.

Calculus: Blind is dumb and one of the only 2 AOE throwers in the faction. A staple in Smoke decent flex pick in Midas.

Compound: I'm not sure if I made this up or not, but Mat Hart once told me that Compound was one of the highest win rate models in all of guild ball. I don't think this is far off. Maybe the best flex pick in all of guild ball. He turns off nearly all turn 1 pressure your opponent can put on you. I play him as a flex into Butchers, Shark, and Alchs (when receiving)

Katalyst: Absolutely nuts. One of the best models in the game but influence hungry. A must take for Midas and playable in Smoke although not my first choice.

Vet Katalyst: Total garbage model saved by a heroic that helps you be un-interactive. I play this in every Smoke game as it enables me to gain points without giving up momentum or control of the game.

Mercury: Must take with Smoke. Leave him at home for Midas

Vitriol: Not what she once was and a bit over-nerfed IMO but still worth the include.

Union: This is a complex issue with only 4 real options. A&G, Decimate, Harry, Mist. I don't like mist. We are in a renaissance of ball-killing and if you are playing mist and trying to score as many goals as possible you are on the wrong side of history. And even if you are convinced I'm wrong Decimate can do 80% of what Mist does and has fighting ability. Harry has been nerfed to the point where he is barely Harry anymore but a second fire AOE and low pushes are good in smoke. Avarisse and Greede are a duo I need to play more but if you are considering Midas as your main captain I think this is worth a look (I have not fully explored this pick). Decimate is my choice for a few reasons. Grace absolutely hoses Smoke with her remove an AOE nonsense making it difficult to play Smoke into grace. By taking Decimate we are giving Midas a list he can win with into Vet Rage and Farmers. Decimate also help so much in the Corsair matchup allowing us to second wind Calculus blind corsair and run away. Decimate is also the second highest damage output model in our union picks. Decimate also helps our Masons matchup and I think that the main reason Alchemists are strong right now has to do with our favored matchup into masons (one of 2 "S tier" factions.)

Crucible: Crucible is my 11th slot. Back when Midas was very strong I used her as a flex slot into Alchemist's (when kicking,) Engineer's, Hunters, and Morticians. The idea was to tax low momentum teams by having her follow around Katalyst and apply her aura. She can jog 6" and is likely close enough to one of Kat's victims to dodge 4". She is fragile but if they go after her they will likely have to overcommit right next to Katalyst.

Venin: A lot of people accuse me of hating on Venin thinking that I haven't given him a fair shake and believe me I have. The unfortunate truth is that he is outclassed in his role by a bunch of the alchemist's roster. He suffers from a ton of design issues (he wants to be both the first and last model to activate and isn't that great at either.) Venin's mini is sweet but unfortunately, his rules are not.

Whoops, guess I did it again.If you guys have questions about guild ball hit me up on twitter: @TheCurkov. Check out my YouTube: Vincent Curkov. An listen to Strictly the Worst Guild Ball Podcast.

 

I understand then that you always play the same roster?

Smoke flask calculus mercury Vkat and decimate

you only change against butchers Compound in and decimate out 

And if the opponent has a grace on the roster you play midas?

Midas flask Okat vitriol decimate and flex compound or calculus?

:P

@TheCurkovsave my day 

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